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Forum
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-> Simcha Section
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Crayon210
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 Wed, Dec 26 2007, 8:07 pm
| Clarissa wrote: | | I don't ever give names of rabbis here to use as authorities to back me up. Frankly, I think this custom is one of the most negative aspects of these boards. |
That's how halachic arguments and discussions generally go.
| Quote: | | I personally have no problem with mixed swimming. |
Right, so this is wrong. Not that you do something different. You do the wrong thing. Mixed swimming is assur. That's it.
| Quote: | | As far as explaining things to children, I don't think there are simple answers. I know plenty of families where kids have gone in all different directions as they grew, and the parents were shocked. I don't know how old your children are, but I think kids have very inquisitive minds, have wide-open eyes and need more. |
What more is there to say? If someone violates halacha, they're doing the wrong thing. What else would you say to a child?
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Crayon210
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Wed, Dec 26 2007, 8:08 pm
| Clarissa wrote: | | batya_d wrote: | | How so? I have no reason to believe you didn't get this psak, but it strengthens your argument if you can back it up with the source. |
I know people, myself included, who were not expressly forbidden to touch or kiss in certain public situations, including weddings. |
You were not expressly forbidden? What in the world does that mean? My rav doesn't call me to tell me what I can and can't do. I ask him.
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Clarissa
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Wed, Dec 26 2007, 8:12 pm
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I guess we disagree. Shocking.
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Maya
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Wed, Dec 26 2007, 8:26 pm
Crayon, if you are already on the issue of bringing a psak when arguing halachically, can you back up the 'no mixed swimming' halacha? I'd really like to see it. I always thought that it is not 'halachically wrong', but just something that the real frum don't do.
Thanks.
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cassandra
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Wed, Dec 26 2007, 8:31 pm
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In halacha things are mutar until proven assur, not the other way around. The burden of proof is on those who maintain that PDAs are assur to bring well established halachic sources, traced through time, not just statements issued by rebbes.
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Crayon210
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Wed, Dec 26 2007, 9:15 pm
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If a man can't see a woman dressed in a way that's not tznius, how can mixed swimming possibly be mutar?
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cassandra
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Wed, Dec 26 2007, 9:42 pm
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My husband and I have actually been trying to get to the bottom of whether or not mixed swimming would be ok while fully dressed....
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Crayon210
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Wed, Dec 26 2007, 9:46 pm
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In clothing that's clinging to the skin?
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Crayon210
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Wed, Dec 26 2007, 9:46 pm
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Shulchan Aruch, Even HaEzer 21:5 discusses touching in public.
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cassandra
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Wed, Dec 26 2007, 9:50 pm
| Crayon210 wrote: | | In clothing that's clinging to the skin? |
or a baggy sweatshirt...
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Crayon210
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Wed, Dec 26 2007, 9:52 pm
| cassandra wrote: | | No it doesn't. |
The Rama and commentaries on the Shulchan Aruch...
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Crayon210
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Wed, Dec 26 2007, 9:52 pm
| cassandra wrote: | | Crayon210 wrote: | | In clothing that's clinging to the skin? |
or a baggy sweatshirt... |
It will still cling to the skin.
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cassandra
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Wed, Dec 26 2007, 9:53 pm
| Crayon210 wrote: | | cassandra wrote: | | No it doesn't. |
The Rama and commentaries on the Shulchan Aruch... |
It is a "yesh omrim" far from clear cut halacha. Which means that it is exactly as Clarissa said-- maybe its something that you want to do and that is ok, but it is also ok for those who don;;t.
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cassandra
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Wed, Dec 26 2007, 9:55 pm
| Crayon210 wrote: | | cassandra wrote: | | Crayon210 wrote: | | In clothing that's clinging to the skin? |
or a baggy sweatshirt... |
It will still cling to the skin. |
If it's big enough it won't.
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Crayon210
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Wed, Dec 26 2007, 10:46 pm
| cassandra wrote: | | Crayon210 wrote: | | cassandra wrote: | | No it doesn't. |
The Rama and commentaries on the Shulchan Aruch... |
It is a "yesh omrim" far from clear cut halacha. Which means that it is exactly as Clarissa said-- maybe its something that you want to do and that is ok, but it is also ok for those who don;;t. |
Has a specific rav paskened based on that that it is indeed okay? As in, why doesn't the chareidi community hold of that?
Last edited by Crayon210 on Wed, Dec 26 2007, 10:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Crayon210
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Wed, Dec 26 2007, 10:46 pm
| cassandra wrote: | | Crayon210 wrote: | | cassandra wrote: | | Crayon210 wrote: | | In clothing that's clinging to the skin? |
or a baggy sweatshirt... |
It will still cling to the skin. |
If it's big enough it won't. |
If it's big enough the person will probably not get a lot of swimming done.
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louche
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Wed, Dec 26 2007, 10:55 pm
| Clarissa wrote: | | Crayon210 wrote: | Just because someone will be exposed to garbage in the street doesn't mean that you have to introduce it to your children...  |
I'm all for privacy and modesty and whatever you like, but I don't consider married people kissing to be garbage on the street. Just because a couple wants to maintain an atmosphere of privacy in terms of their affection, doesn't mean that have to act like all acts of physical affection between other people is dirty. That's where I think one crosses the line from being tsnius to being uptight, and I don't think it transmits a great message to children. I'm not saying one should applaud if one passes a couple going at it like dogs in heat. I'm saying that it's not shocking or appalling that some people kiss when they marry, and one doesn't need to present it as such, in order to teach good values to the children. Why can't it be, "this is what they do, this is not what we do." |
Thank you, Clarissa, that's exactly what I meant, though I didn't articulate it nearly as eloquently.
With attitudes like the one to which you responded, it's a wonder any frum person can have a normal marital relationship.
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cassandra
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Wed, Dec 26 2007, 10:58 pm
| Crayon210 wrote: |
Has a specific rav paskened based on that that it is indeed okay? As in, why doesn't the chareidi community hold of that? |
A specific Rav doesn't need to pasken that it's ok, but your Rav can poskin that his followers should hold by this chumra. Obviously the chareidi community has certain sensitivities, and that's fine. But clearly this isn't black and white halacha.
Anyway, the whole thing is a Catch-22, since the Rama states that the reason for avoiding chiba with your wife in publc is so that it doesn't arouse thoughts of s-x in the minds of those who see it. But in a society where innocuous PDAs like hand-holding or a delicate kiss do not immediately arouse these thoughts, the reasoning wouldn't seem to apply anymore. But if your community holds that these things should not be done in public, then seeing them probably would arouse s-xual thoughts.
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cassandra
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Wed, Dec 26 2007, 10:58 pm
| Crayon210 wrote: |
If it's big enough the person will probably not get a lot of swimming done. |
So can they stand in the pool?
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