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Forum
-> Coronavirus Health Questions
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amother
Crimson
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 Sun, Mar 08 2020, 11:19 am
This thread reminds me of a story of Rav Elyashiv obm
A man came to hime that his elderly father has a wonderful non jewish aide who takes care of all his needs. Why shouldn't he be allowed to open the flame as he starts cooking? After all his father is 93 years old?
Rav Elyashiv retorted: a 93 year old mentsch is also a mentsch (man).
If human life (or neshama) is sacred, then it is sacred at any age, and in any matzav it is in.
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amother
Coral
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Sun, Mar 08 2020, 11:24 am
| nchr wrote: | No.
I have repeadetly mentioned that for the majority of the population this is not life or death, as have medical and municipal officials.
I'm referring to a person, literally who said that it doesn't matter because only old people get really sick or die and then mentioned that's what happened to his father and it's just part of life because "these people can die from a cold too." You must be very sheltered if you haven't been exposed to people who feel that way.
And yes, there should be ethics classes in school. People behave this way all the time - when they speed, when they don't stop at stop signs, when they text and drive, when they cut a line, when they throw measles parties, when they hoard toilet paper, etc. |
The New Rochelle lawyer is 50 years old and is not doing well. There are other people on vents in their 30s and 40s. You can say something repeatedly, but that doesn’t make it true.
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Librarian
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Sun, Mar 08 2020, 11:26 am
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And since when is 50 "old". I am 50, have a full time job, am a mother, grandmother etc with a very full plate. So am I "old" too?
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nchr
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Sun, Mar 08 2020, 11:42 am
| amother [ Coral ] wrote: | | The New Rochelle lawyer is 50 years old and is not doing well. There are other people on vents in their 30s and 40s. You can say something repeatedly, but that doesn’t make it true. |
What are you saying?
Statistics are true. The statistics are that for the vast majority of people, even those who are elderly and immune compromised that they will survive. That doesn't mean the virus is a joke, that there are no complications or that there are not flukes etc. Or that it doesnt have the potential to babe serious medical and economic challenges. I am saying that even though most people will be ok, that does not diminish our responsibility to the rest of the population and population as a whole. I have never once said something inappropriate or contrary to statistics. I was recommending ethics classes for people who disregard risks and others lives. Please clarify what you are talking about.
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iyar
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Sun, Mar 08 2020, 2:19 pm
| Zehava wrote: | | So if I’m relieved that it barely affects kids does everyone else not count? It’s a coping mechanism. We’re wired to want to survive. It’s not like we’re actually killing anyone by saying this. |
Wow.
That's setting the bar pretty low.
I was upset nchr said- "It's a societal issue though, whereas in countries like Japan, that is not an accepted sentiment."
I'm not saying you're wrong, nchr.
I'm saying- in countries like Japan it's not acceptable to look out only for yourself and ignore the effect you're having on society as a whole. What about us? We think it's all good if we're not actually killing anyone?!
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iyar
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Sun, Mar 08 2020, 2:26 pm
| nchr wrote: | What are you saying?
Statistics are true. The statistics are that for the vast majority of people, even those who are elderly and immune compromised that they will survive. That doesn't mean the virus is a joke, that there are no complications or that there are not flukes etc. Or that it doesnt have the potential to babe serious medical and economic challenges. I am saying that even though most people will be ok, that does not diminish our responsibility to the rest of the population and population as a whole. I have never once said something inappropriate or contrary to statistics. I was recommending ethics classes for people who disregard risks and others lives. Please clarify what you are talking about. |
True.
Unfortunately there are lots of people who aren't interested in what you're saying.
They don't care about statistics or facts. They'd rather believe this was all invented by #nevertrump.
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Raisin
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Sun, Mar 08 2020, 3:05 pm
It is very reassuring that no children have died from this. But I do know people whose kids have asthma and so on are worried - but do we know if any kids with asthma have had it yet, and how they did?
Yes, I am definitely concerned for my parents and friends and relatives who are older or who are not so well.  I am less worried about myself, since I am in good health and under 50.
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nchr
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Sun, Mar 08 2020, 3:15 pm
| Raisin wrote: | It is very reassuring that no children have died from this. But I do know people whose kids have asthma and so on are worried - but do we know if any kids with asthma have had it yet, and how they did?
Yes, I am definitely concerned for my parents and friends and relatives who are older or who are not so well. I am less worried about myself, since I am in good health and under 50. |
Presumably some of the children had asthma, but I don't know if there are statistics out. I think about 3% of children in China have asthma v. 10% in the US, so I guess we can assume that 3% of the kids included in the statistics had asthma..
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mamma llama
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Sun, Mar 08 2020, 3:28 pm
I think everyone's anger at each other's posts is stemming from a place of fear and knowledge that they have no control over what happens.
Instead of criticizing "distasteful" posts (as many of us have been doing on these threads), we should all be davening to Hashem. He's the only one who can help us.
When He sees us coming together b'achdus, surely He will bring us our salvation from the coronavirus and galus altogether!
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HonesttoGod
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Sun, Mar 08 2020, 3:34 pm
it’s not that we don’t care about the elderly or immunocompromised. Of course we do. As soon as the vaccine comes out I’ll get it as I did with the flu vaccine to protect myself and others as best I can.
What we are saying is that it’s way over the top and a little crazy to be quarantining everyone and their neighbor because they sneezed or stood in the same stadium as someone who sneezed when the majority of us won’t get affected (as in 80+% of us). Those who do need to worry should worry by taking extra steps they do to protect themselves from any virus such as flu etc.
but to halt life and the world for something that only a small tiny percentage will suffer from is just not practical or normal.
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amother
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Sun, Mar 08 2020, 4:07 pm
also there is a case (and probably more) of a pregnant woman who was infected and passed it along to her baby who was born with it
not to be the bearer of not good news; however, please everyone be vigilant. While I am a big fan of positive thinking and Hashem Could End this all today k'cheref ayin b'derech hateva this type of thinking if nothing else really smacks of major denial. Which does not help anyone.
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mamma llama
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Sun, Mar 08 2020, 4:32 pm
| amother [ Aqua ] wrote: | also there is a case (and probably more) of a pregnant woman who was infected and passed it along to her baby who was born with it
not to be the bearer of not good news; however, please everyone be vigilant. While I am a big fan of positive thinking and Hashem Could End this all today k'cheref ayin b'derech hateva this type of thinking if nothing else really smacks of major denial. Which does not help anyone. |
Emunah, not denial. 
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amother
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Sun, Mar 08 2020, 4:45 pm
honestly I just don't get it when people are saying doesn't effect them why should they quarantine....only wish and truly hope that proves to be true!
Yes Emunah and Bitachon!
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amother
Jade
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Sun, Mar 08 2020, 4:49 pm
| amother [ OP ] wrote: | I just don’t get it.
(Referencing posts from different threads)
Thanks for making me feel like my kids life doesn’t matter “cuz she’s sick anyway “
Vent over |
Not sure what you're referring to, but I did see someone suggest it's easier to quarantine the old/ sick than the general population. Is that what you are referring to? If so, it's not about anyone being more important than anyone else. It's a matter of practicality. Don't worry. Will never happen.
Wishing your daughter a refuah sheleima.
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MitzadSheini
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Sun, Mar 08 2020, 4:50 pm
| amother [ Aqua ] wrote: | | honestly I just don't get it when people are saying doesn't effect them why should they quarantine... |
So as not to become carriers and ch"v pass it on to people who are more likely to die.
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amother
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Sun, Mar 08 2020, 5:15 pm
that is not the only reason: no one knows the effects of this virus, who knows maybe someone gets a "mild" case and then later there is an issue cvs or the next time they get it it is worse R"L:
NO ONE KNOWS!
Maybe like measles a percentage has permanent side effects apparent later chas v shalom -- hopefully not but why would anyone take a chance...
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amother
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Sun, Mar 08 2020, 5:28 pm
| HonesttoGod wrote: | it’s not that we don’t care about the elderly or immunocompromised. Of course we do. As soon as the vaccine comes out I’ll get it as I did with the flu vaccine to protect myself and others as best I can.
What we are saying is that it’s way over the top and a little crazy to be quarantining everyone and their neighbor because they sneezed or stood in the same stadium as someone who sneezed when the majority of us won’t get affected (as in 80+% of us). Those who do need to worry should worry by taking extra steps they do to protect themselves from any virus such as flu etc.
but to halt life and the world for something that only a small tiny percentage will suffer from is just not practical or normal. |
This makes sense only if you don't look at the big picture. First, if 80% of the population doesn't take precautionary measures then there's isn't enough extra steps for those who are susceptible to take. Unless you're recommending that they should build a bunker and lock themselves away for years till the virus dissipates. With 80% of the population not taking measures, it offers a staggering amount of hosts for the virus to thrive on for a good many months or years.
Second - if 10-20% of the population becomes seriously sick with this disease, EVERYONE will suffer. I will repeat that since this is the part that most people don't seem to realize. EVERYONE will suffer. The 10-20% will utilize ALL of the current medical resources, leaving nothing much for the rest of the society. The medical community, personnel and supplies all will be allocated to treat this crisis, and there won't be much left for any other disease. If you end up in the ER, there won't be a bed for you (or in the hospital for that matter). The O2 tanks and vents all will be allocated for the stricken. The medical personnel will be redirected to treat this emergency, so good luck trying to schedule surgeries, doctor appointments, and the like. Current ongoing treatment protocols will be rescheduled, anything less than an immediate life threatening situation will be turned away. I can go on and on... Unless, you're suggesting that we shouldn't treat the stricken and just leave them to die?
All of society is dependent on one another. If one part refuses to pull their weight, it brings all of society down, not just the part that people are willing to push aside.
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amother
Blonde
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Sun, Mar 08 2020, 5:31 pm
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It wasn't said sensitively but its just rationalizing anxiety. It is said because the same population is at risk from everything that goes around. But this is an unknown and for the wellbeing of others quarantine is a huge inconvenience but the decent thing to do if you feel sick. If you have even a slight doubt and are out, wear a mask. Of course we care about everybody.
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amother
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Sun, Mar 08 2020, 5:33 pm
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Moreover if in fact this overwhelms healthcare systems, economies, supply chains, travel, schools, camps, celebrations, and more even if it is "just 6%" or who knows what minority then um yes you and all of us are certainly going to be greatly impacted. Life and the world as we know it is changing. May it be only for the good.
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