S/O of S/O of babies

amother

Tangerine

Wed, Jan 29 2020, 7:13 pm

amother [ Wheat ] wrote:

But maybe the things that "gave" were not all that important?

This.
One of my best friends is one of 14. She is currently not yet 40, and a mother of 11. Her pregnancies are not easy. Her house is often messy.
Yet. Her children, one by one, are superstars. Smart, well behaved, full of chain, incredible kids. She and her husband are amazing parents and, though they both work, seem to have endless amount of patience for their own kids. She is the most beloved teacher in the school. I can go on and on. So what gives? Her house is not perfectly neat. Yet, she always knows where things are. Her kids are always dressed in neat clothes, no rips or stains. She manages to stay on top of all the important things, even though there are toys and books lying around.
So yes, something is gonna give. And most people can not be like her. But it's a choice she makes to prioritize bringing these amazing children into the world and giving them the best chinuch, over having a super neat house.

↑ yiddishmom

Wed, Jan 29 2020, 7:14 pm

Of course dysfunction exists.

It hasn't as much to do with family size as it does have with the parent's personal well being.

Obviously a large family will exasperate and multiply the issue.

And to the poster who said it can only be done with lots of emotional and financial support, I wish to disagree.

Both my parents come from highly dysfunctional and abusive homes, they definitely didn't get any emotional support.

Nor was there any financial support. My mother stopped working from the day she had me (her oldest), and my father had many rough times. There were times my mother didn't know how she'd put bread on the table....

I am not implying that everyone should have large families. I definitely think that there is birth control for a reason. But I am saying that all this negativity is misplaced.

I also think that today's society has made things a lot harder.

Our homes need to be spick and span, always organized, we must always look super put together, always be skinny, always wear the trendiest things, our children must have every experience out there, our homes must be large and big, lest a child won't have their own private space where to chill/ do their homework. We expect so much, of course people are gonna go out of their minds.

Take life a little easier, more in stride, let it flow and go with the flow, and everything will be better.

amother

↑ Salmon

Wed, Jan 29 2020, 7:15 pm

amother [ Royalblue ] wrote:

Excuse you! What qualifies as dysfunctional- the fact that they are missing a notebook? Or they didn’t eat breakfast cuz the kid- Doesn’t like breakfast?? I am asking this more as a teacher, judging children from large families based upon what you deem functional and dysfunctional. If as a child you personally felt emotionally and physically neglected you have a valid point, but as a teacher or an outsider it is condescending and patronizing to decide that a family is dysfunctional because the kids are missing supplies or come to school hungry.

As a teacher myself, there are many many students that come from functional families that are missing supplies and don’t eat breakfast!

I agree with OP!

Have you ever noticed that it is only orthodox pple that look down condescendingly at those with large families. Your typical average “[gentile]” thinks it is beautiful and a blessing.

That’s absolutely untrue.

amother

↑ Wheat ↓

Wed, Jan 29 2020, 7:21 pm

amother [ Babyblue ] wrote:

I have one student who has never brought in supplies the whole year - not even a pencil . When I spoke to his mother she said he is old enough to take care of buying supplies himself and it's his responsibility (he is 11 years old ). I have another student who brings in lunch maybe once a week and is always begging others for food- never has snacks. He is always dressed in holey clothes and it's very clear they don't have money. I have a student who has gotten ssuspended without me ever talking to the parents because they don't answer my calls . All 3 of these come from family size in the teens .

The level of dysfunction you're describing here is extreme, and usually has more to do with the parents than the number of children they have.

amother

Goldenrod

Wed, Jan 29 2020, 8:09 pm

Quote:

Have you ever noticed that it is only orthodox pple that look down condescendingly at those with large families. Your typical average “[gentile]” thinks it is beautiful and a blessing.

Not sure where you live, but I don't think I have ever met a gentile who thought my "large" family of 4 was beautiful. The usual comments I get are "they're all yours?", or "wow, good luck" with lots of eye rolling.

My DH is 1 of 9. One sibling has 7 kids, one has 6, and no one else has more than 4. I wouldn't call their home dysfunctional, but my DH absolutely felt his parents had no time for him and they were lacking in many basic things that left an impression on him even after so many years.

amother

↑ Lemon ↓

Wed, Jan 29 2020, 8:34 pm

amother [ Pumpkin ] wrote:

I grew up in large family and babysat for a few large families. Yes, there was a lot of dysfunction that I was privy too as I was their usual babysitter. In my home growing uo, the dysfunction was bec my dad couldn't afford the basics and was so stressed working around the clock while mom was busy with the infants and Toddlers....

And, to the posters here who said "it's the kids job to do....not the mothers job"...well, yes, but it's the parents job to show the kids what's important and teach them by reinforcing the ....

And, basically, I dont know many functional large families except ones that did have a lot of support ....mostly financial such as one woman who had her parents supporting her while she had a baby almost every year and her dh learned in kollel and......another family had a decent salary for a large family such that the mom told me "we earn well and spend well" ....yes, these moms are more chilled"" but they did have a lot of supports/money and....that others dont have

So from my personal experience, I dont think it's possible to manage a large family unless there is a lot of support emotionally, financially,....etc...and I dont believe its possible for these moms of large families to "do it all" and work full time with no money for cleaning help...etc and other extras that others cant afford and affects kids/adults..

I'm sad that you think its the norm. Do most mothers work full time in your circles AND have large families?
I grew up in a double digit family and I think the greatest gift my parents gave me is many siblings. I'm sad my kids won't have that.
Our home was decently cleaned each evening and deep cleaned for Shabbos, linen washed weekly, baths a couple of times a week, warm breakfast and dinners (balanced from all food groups),homework done every SINGLE day (my mother NEVER let me get away with it lol), bedtime stories every evening. School supplies at hand probably depended more on the kids personality than my mother's capabilities.
We had no family nearby. No financial support.
The clincher is maybe that my mother did not work for most of my childhood years and that people were way more ok being simple in terms of dressing, the way your house looked, etc. It wasn't impossible to exist on one average salary.
Most of my friends grew up similar. In fact, the most fun home was the one whose mother had a baby every 12-18 months. The mom was just a fun person and we loved going there.

amother

Navy

Wed, Jan 29 2020, 8:43 pm

amother [ Tangerine ] wrote:

She's still supermom. Honestly, most people in this situation would drop more balls thatn just a neat house.

amother

White ↓

Wed, Jan 29 2020, 8:53 pm

amother [ Navy ] wrote:

She's still supermom. Honestly, most people in this situation would drop more balls thatn just a neat house.

This. I don't believe that all a mother of 14 drops is a neat house.

First of all, what do you mean by dropping a neat house? Most women with young children who work don't have such a neat house. It's not like we all live in sparkling homes; most women struggle to keep that up as it is. Even if she doesn't work, by the time you have a large family, it's kind of a given the house won't be so 'neat' unless you either have cleaning help every other day or exceptionally helpful children.

Do you mean she really neglected the house? That it became a flying zoo? Or that is was actually dirty? In such cases, the kids may be suffering even if they don't say anything. Do they bring friends over? Are they proud of their house, or embarrassed?

amother

↑ White ↓

Wed, Jan 29 2020, 8:57 pm

amother [ Royalblue ] wrote:

Have you ever noticed that it is only orthodox pple that look down condescendingly at those with large families. Your typical average “[gentile]” thinks it is beautiful and a blessing.

Sorry, but no. I hang out with nonJews and secular Jews at least half the time. They do not view huge families as beautiful. Maybe up to five kids they view with awe, and as a blessing.

But a family with eight or ten or twelve kids? They view it as a fundamentalist/evangelist set up, weird and unfair to the kids, something like the Duggar family, with all its craziness. (although of course the Duggar family is very rich, so its craziness is more photogenic).

amother

↑ White ↓

Wed, Jan 29 2020, 9:04 pm

yiddishmom wrote:

I love all my siblings even though I had to spend many nights bathing them, putting them to sleep, folding their laundry, preparing their snacks and lunches and thus had to forgo nights out with my friends.

I think this is beautiful, and I'm glad you are so close to your family. This is idyllic.

Truth is though, that today most kids are not up for this. Many kids will grow up resentful if they are made to be second mommies because their mother and father don't have the time.

I think if you live in a culture where EVERYONE is like this it's different. But I think this can only work in some small circles today. In addition, I know that my kids from age 12 and up, especially in high school, were far too busy with schoolwork to help out much at home at all. They were staying up late to study. I can't imagine telling them to regularly put siblings to sleep or forgo some precious 'break' time with their friends.

amother

Plum ↓

Wed, Jan 29 2020, 9:05 pm

amother [ White ] wrote:

Sorry, but no. I hang out with nonJews and secular Jews at least half the time. They do not view huge families as beautiful. Maybe up to five kids they view with awe, and as a blessing.

I second this. When I was pregnant with my second, the mechanic told me, “great! Two kids! Now you can stop.” When I take my two children to the store, non Jews always stop me to tell me I have my hands full (while my smiling children are sitting in the front of the shopping cart or calmly walking next to me lol). The secular people I am around constantly make rude comments about the frum woman they know with 10 children.
It’s the orthodox people who are asking me why I don’t have more yet.

amother

↑ White ↓

Wed, Jan 29 2020, 9:10 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I'm trying to understand, really not judging anyone I'm just trying to understand.

Why is it that when someone posts an explanation as to why they chose to have a big family despite the hardships it entails, do others feel the need to discount it by saying that either their children must be neglected or they must not actually have it that hard?

I personally try not to judge, and certainly don't say things like that aloud.

I do believe that it is exceptionally hard to raise a family of ten well, at least in this day and age. Fifty or a hundred years ago, it was enough that the kids survived. Today, people expect a lot more out of parents.

Raising a huge family well requires a number of factors - healthy, easy going parents; healthy, easy going children; solid income; support; and at least one parent with a lot of extra emotional and physical energy. When all these factors come together, or at least most of them, you can have a successful huge family. The truth is though, that it is not the norm for all these factors to co-exist.

ETA- even then, it's extremely hard to be present emotionally for all the kids. You will be busy diapering and nursing when your teens need you to take them shopping and have long chats with them.

amother

Chartreuse ↓

Wed, Jan 29 2020, 9:12 pm

I have 14 ble eiyin hora and am baffled everytime the teachers comment how my kids look and act like onlies, they always have their supplies and we put a lot of effort into their projects.

I'm like, what? Hypnotized

because I have many kids I have to stereotype them by dressing them shlumpy clothes and failing tests? These children are everything I have and I will give them everything I got. Yes, they have to contribute more to the housework, but they are gaining a wonderful network of multiple siblings in return.

BH

amother

↑ White ↓

Wed, Jan 29 2020, 9:13 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I've also been thinking that maybe the modern expectations of motherhood have played in role in creating this idea. I think that because society places so much weight on home cooked meals, extra curriculars, structured activities at home, tons of He assistance etc that we don't think children can grow up healthy, happy and loved even though they play together while mommy talks to them while laying on the couch and their tatty makes Mac and cheese with cucumber sticks for supper. We're equating the household functioning with the kids emotional stability even though, with the proper outlook and done in a smart way, the love and devotion that the children grow up with can outweigh the messy house and frozen pizza.
I'm underqualified to have an opinion really, since I come from a small family and was always really sad about it and I have only been married s couple years and have 2 kids under 2. But I want a big family and I don't have easy pregnancies and I'm not a talented home maker and I'm a greatly imperfect person. So I'm trying to get to the core of how to raise a healthy big family when you aren't superwoman.

I think kids can grow up great with frozen pizza, or mommy lying on the couch resting while they play.
I'm the last one who thinks parents need to always roll around the floor with each child.
I do think though that at some point, it's very overwhelming and almost impossible to be there for each child's emotional needs. Some kids will naturally be overlooked.

amother

↑ Chartreuse ↓

Wed, Jan 29 2020, 9:14 pm

Flip Flops wrote:

This, this and this.
Is there any studies that show that there is more dysfunction in larger families than smaller families?
We should take a poll from all the imas who were abused and see how many are from large families. Dysfunction can exist anywhere.

I was raised by an outside functional but inside abusive mom and a family of 6.

I'm raising a large family and like to believe that I'm a good mom in the least.

amother

↑ White ↓

Wed, Jan 29 2020, 9:17 pm

amother [ Chartreuse ] wrote:

I was raised by an outside functional but inside abusive mom and a family of 6.

I'm raising a large family and like to believe that I'm a good mom in the least.

First of all, six is a pretty large family.

Second, abuse can exist anywhere, also in families of one or two children. However, the more children, the more overwhelmed a parent can feel, and the abuse can exacerbate.

But of course true abuse exists everywhere, unfortunately. We are talking more about benign neglect, rather than abuse.

amother

↑ Chartreuse ↓

Wed, Jan 29 2020, 9:19 pm

amother [ White ] wrote:

No, not at all. I agree that EVERY child won't have their parents' attention ALL the time, that would raise brats. But as long as EVERY child gets at least SOME wholesome time, they will grow up well rounded with a healthy balance of being self sufficient and being able to rely on parents.