Open Minded to less frum... and more??

amother

Gold

Thu, Jul 18 2019, 5:11 pm

amother [ Floralwhite ] wrote:

Both. Acting snobbishly and being snubbed. And thank you for sticking up for me. (Do u think I’m being picked at because I wrote that I am identifiably chassidish?)
Jk, I’m not even going there.

You’re not the first imamother to use snob as a verb, maybe it’s slang in some communities.

amother

Green

Thu, Jul 18 2019, 6:37 pm

To me a part of being open-minded is that if someone treated you badly or looked down at you because of what you perceive as your level of frumkeit or whatever reason-recognize that this individual does not represent a particular group or spectrum of yiddishkeit.
It’s best not to generalize because of a negative experience.
Maybe the person ignoring you in the grocery store had a bad day and is being rude to everyone she encounters.
Or maybe they’re lacking social skills.
Most normal people will treat others with respect.
Not everything is personal.

↑ creditcards ↓

Thu, Jul 18 2019, 7:39 pm

SixOfWands wrote:

He didn't need to say a word. He said it loud and clear by sitting there and only sipping water, making perfectly clear that he didn't consider the food to be kosher.

I wonder if he asked his rav about humiliating a relative in that way. Because yes, its humiliating to have someone at the table practically shouting YOU'RE EATING TREYF. Did he consider ordering a salad, no dressing, no onions, which should be fine whatever the hecksher.

Salad is much more problematic to order with a hechsher you don't use. Lettuce needs to be checked according to the way you believe. Lots of vegetable need to be checked. There are so many shailahs going into salad. I find it very inconsiderate and not accepting to schedule an outing in a restaurant you know this relative doesn't eat in and put him in a spot. My sister doesn't eat everything I eat and before I invite her for shabbos I make sure with her that I buy food that she can eat. I check it with her beforehand. We are both chasidish and I don't get insulted that she thinks I eat trief. Last week she gave me a snack that my mother bought for her kids. She asked me if I want it because she doesn't eat that hechsher. I said "sure my kids will enjoy it."

Mommyg8 ↓

Thu, Jul 18 2019, 7:52 pm

creditcards wrote:

Totally agree. We eat a lot of hechsherim that others don't eat (many in my community will only eat heimishe hechsherim, as opposed to let's say the O-U or O-K) and most schools have a policy that they only allow nosh with a heimishe hechsher. Why would I be insulted? I'm happy to send a nosh that everyone will be happy with.

My brother only eats a certain shechita of meat, so if I'm having him for a meal I check with him what to buy before I buy it. I'm not upset at all - why should I be? Or if someone eats yashan, etc...

Some people don't eat certain vegetables unless they are checked a certain way. Perhaps commercial establishments rely on certain kulos and some people want to be machmir... I dunno. But it's certainly not insulting if someone doesn't want to eat your vegetables!!!

amother

Lavender ↓

Thu, Jul 18 2019, 7:57 pm

Flip Flops wrote:

We hear it so much today. Being open minded to Jews on all levels, accepting of those who have different standards than us... Yet somehow I feel like people only act this way toward those who are less frum than them.
The many people out there who go around saying, "I'm so open minded" only use this in reference to those who are less frum and have lower standards, not more frum. These same "open minded" people are so quick to scorn, put down or make fun of those who are more frum or have higher standards.
It's like, G-d forbid to make a condescending remark about your more modern cousin, but feel free to make fun of your yeshivish neighbor. Why??

Yes that’s very common on immaother.

amother

↑ Apricot ↓

Thu, Jul 18 2019, 8:00 pm

The issue I have with the extra stringencies that people take upon themselves is that sometimes they double down on them while forgetting other halachos that are equally or possibly even more relevant to the situation. Not hurting people, not embarrassing people are actual halachos and in tough situations everything needs to be considered.

I find that people so desperately want respect and accommodations for the chumros or some particular beliefs, they go to extremes to defend their positions. They end up embarrassing others in public, destroy shalom and talk lashon hora in defense of their choices. If one knows that challenging situations will present themselves, then one needs to ask shailohs and figure our a proper strategy. You'd be surprised how many times a Rav will tell someone to put aside the chumrah in deference to the other halachos.

↑ Mommyg8 ↓

Thu, Jul 18 2019, 8:02 pm

amother [ Apricot ] wrote:

But why is it embarrassing others in public if I don't eat the same hechsherim you do?

(Personally, I do eat most hechsherim, but I'm talking about other people).

And let's say I ask my Rav and he says, no, you can't. Then what do I do?

Last edited by Mommyg8 on Thu, Jul 18 2019, 8:03 pm; edited 1 time in total

↑ creditcards ↓

Thu, Jul 18 2019, 8:03 pm

amother [ Linen ] wrote:

I think there gets to a point where people tire from having to arrange plans to satisfy those with the most stringencies.

If they tire of of arranging plans, then at least they should have the decency not to get insulted if the person doesn't show up. And if the person does show up and pays full price definitely don't get insulted. That's what we are discussing now. Accepting others and their things they hold by. If he thinks it's trief let him think that way. And don't get insulted if he doesn't want to eat something he thinks is trief.

Last edited by creditcards on Thu, Jul 18 2019, 8:41 pm; edited 1 time in total

↑ creditcards ↓

Thu, Jul 18 2019, 8:04 pm

urban gypsy wrote:

More like a Freudian slip but ok....
That's the whole point of the thread!
Yes it's okay to uphold your standards, no it's not okay to believe that other people are eating treif when they aren't
In 12th grade a very frum friend offered the daughter of the Rav teaching the class a chalav stam cookie and his daughter accidentally said "that's not kosher for me" without thinking
HE LAID INTO HER LIKE YOU WOULD NOT BELIEVE in front of everyone and made it very clear that kind of attitude is NOT OK and obviously he and his family kept Chalav Yisrael

That was not nice, and I don't consider embarrassing someone in public being Adam lachaveiro.

↑ Genius ↓

Thu, Jul 18 2019, 8:05 pm

This woman at the restaurant obviously has an issue with herself. For some reason she gets intimidated by her brother who wouldn't eat there. Is it possible she's feeling guilty abt it? Bc otherwise, considering that she knew who she was inviting I can't see why she was insulted. Was she hoping to prove that she can make him eat, to boost her own ego perhaps?

amother

Yellow ↓

Thu, Jul 18 2019, 8:06 pm

SixOfWands wrote:

So this is not being judgmental, right?
I say he did the right thing, he showed up to a family affair even though it is known he won’t eat there.
He didn’t say it was treyf, he has different hechsher standards and doesn’t expect others to plan a family get together around his standards.

↑ SixOfWands ↓

Thu, Jul 18 2019, 8:10 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

Its making a very public statement that you don't consider what others eat to be kosher.

Its not like saying I'm a vegetarian, or I don't eat lamb. It saying what you eat isn't kosher. Because if it were merely a chumra or stringency, you'd be able to eat something.

What would I do if my rabbi actually told me that there was nothing -- not fish, not a vegetarian dish, not a salad -- that I could eat at a restaurant that was otherwise widely considered kosher? I would make an excuse not to go. I certainly wouldn't sit there sipping water while everyone felt like I was judging them for eating what I deemed treyf.

I also would try not to put anyone in that position.

↑ Genius ↓

Thu, Jul 18 2019, 8:15 pm

SixOfWands wrote:

Why does this guy have to give up on his chumras? why shouldn't big ego woman give up on her pride?

amother

↑ Linen ↓

Thu, Jul 18 2019, 8:20 pm

amother [ Yellow ] wrote:

Basically he's saying - I can't trust that food is kosher. That's all it is. Can we be straight about it.

amother

↑ Apricot ↓

Thu, Jul 18 2019, 8:20 pm

genius wrote:

Why does this guy have to give up on his chumras? why shouldn't big ego woman give up on her pride?

Because there may just be other actual Halachos to consider, and being a good Jew (and person) doesn't depend on a battle of wits or a battle or pride. Its depends on doing what's right in a particular situation, regardless of what the other person is doing.

amother

Babypink ↓

Thu, Jul 18 2019, 8:22 pm

allthingsblue wrote:

If there was fruit, I agree that's a good idea. But many restaurants don't offer fresh fruit. Also, if this was in Israel, that could pose another problem with shemittah; we had that issue. (I'm not saying This was the case, j am just mentioning possibilities.)

Even when there's no shmitta concerns - trumas umaisros is a big issue for Israeli fruit and veg.

↑ Genius ↓

Thu, Jul 18 2019, 8:23 pm

amother [ Apricot ] wrote:

right. so how abt considering gaava and her being him dan lkaf zchus?

amother

↑ Apricot ↓

Thu, Jul 18 2019, 8:27 pm

genius wrote:

right. so how abt considering gaava and her being him dan lkaf zchus?

A person should consider and evaluate his own actions, and not the other person. Criticize oneself, and be dlz the other party. Since he was the protagonist in this thread, it's his behavior under scrutiny and not hers.

↑ Genius ↓

Thu, Jul 18 2019, 8:34 pm

amother [ Apricot ] wrote:

According to this scenario the insulted woman is the protagonist and he is the antagonist. What I say is that he is the protagonist and I don't understand why she is insulted. other than that I'll go work on my middos.
maybe I got the story wrong. lemme go and read it again.

acemom

Thu, Jul 18 2019, 8:36 pm

urban gypsy wrote:

I think it makes a big difference whether the restaurant has a kosher certification or not. If it's MacDonald's, then the relatives are being a bit unreasonable expecting the frum person to eat there. If it's a kosher restaurant with a hashgacha he doesn't hold by, surely he can choose something acceptable to eat, even if it's fruit or something

Wasn't he choosing the "something" to be water? Someone who was insulted by the water, would've become insulted by him just eating fruit instead of the meal everyone else had.