Share your opinion without bashing please...

amother

↑ Coffee ↓

Tue, May 28 2019, 1:11 pm

someone can be low income, qualifying for gov't help and have their parents host them for all the yommim tovim, buy their kids clothing...

A married couple can LEGALLY give someone 28,000 without the person having to pay any taxes on it. Im not sure if that gets doubled if they give separately to the husband and wife. That's a lot of money. I have no idea if that is taken in to account when deciding if someone qualifies for government programs.

If a gemach gives a free outfit to each kollel family that's not going to affect if they qualify for programs but will affect the peer pressure of the community.

amother

↑ Coffee ↓

Tue, May 28 2019, 1:13 pm

in terms of moving someplace with lower standards, I feel like the people with higher standards are moving to different communities and bringing it with them. Not sure if anyplace is "safe". I have heard that South Bend makes a point of saying that they want people to keep the standards low but not sure if that's true or not.

amother

Azure

Tue, May 28 2019, 1:14 pm

amother [ Lavender ] wrote:

Is it "bashing" to ask whether a significant number of people are getting income in a dishonest way? Like taking government grants they are not entitled to? This is an uncomfortable topic that gets avoided, but there has been evidence that it is a real consideration, and ties in directly to the topic of this thread.

It is bashing. And for the many ppl that I know well (I can count at least 30 couples in various stages who’s finances I’m privvy to) is totally not true and not a factor.

I agree with the poster upthread that said that sometimes the families that stay in kollel longer are those with serious family money to begin with that buys them a comfortable lifestyle. Definitely those that bought houses already - how many parents that are not rich can buy their kids houses while supporting them as well.

If they wouldn’t be in kollel they might just be even fancier and more ostentatious.

So this is not so much about what the kollel ppl do it’s just the old age problem of leaving around ppl that have more money than you.

amother

Saddlebrown ↓

Tue, May 28 2019, 1:19 pm

There are many Lakewood neighborhoods. There are many Lakewood schools. Standard of living varies tremendously based on where you live and where you send.

I live in a very simple neighborhood and send to a mixed school. I make sure my kids look put together but I don't do anything fancy and neither do my neighbors. And yes, we're in kollel but so are our parents. Our neighbors are also mostly from learning families.

OP it sounds like your neighborhood wound up being not what you were hoping for. Would you feel better if the neighbors were working and so that way you could pretend they were living on their own dime?

amother

Purple

Tue, May 28 2019, 1:22 pm

amother [ Plum ] wrote:

Yes it's in other places too but Lakewood is a makum Torah and was originally built that way. Away from gashmius away from all the other "needs" of society.

Today that purpose is totally gone.

Even if parents are very wealthy and supporting their Talmud chachum. There is something wrong with a Talmud chachums daughter dressing in ladidas $400 t shirts.

Torah is a kind of lifestyle, not just tatty being Chashuv, mommy shopping and Zeidy being the bank.

Learning Torah is supposed to come with toil.

It's ok if they don't struggle for rent or food, but a girl should be told and feel proud, no we won't get this outfit it's too expensive even if we can afford it. we are lucky that our father learns all day.

A kollel wife should feel proud that she doesn't get the most expensive sheitel or "do lunch" every day, even if she can afford it.

What have they sacrificed for Torah? why would they get Schar?

THANK YOU Plum! Flower

I want to like this post more than once

↑ 33055 ↓

Tue, May 28 2019, 1:23 pm

amother [ Lavender ] wrote:

When you use the word dishonest, it's bashing.

Touching on the topic is sure to ignite someone who feels threatened. The demographics are interesting. Even though a significant percentage of the population (mid 90s) is on program in some areas, those areas contain many luxury stores. There is no legitimate way to reconcile the spending with the reported income.

giselle ↓

Tue, May 28 2019, 1:26 pm

This thread resonates with me to an extent. I don’t live in a kollel neighborhood and never lived a kollel lifestyle, but growing up, kollel was shoved down our throats and it equaled poverty. We were told our husbands can’t go to work until our children are basically crying for food, and even then we have to ask a shaila. We were also taught that college is asur - yes those exact words were used - so basically we were not being prepared to support a husband in Kollel. I’m not exaggerating in the slightest. So then, to see people move to Lakewood to live a “kollel” life, while bringing along with them a very high standard of living, well I can definitely see how people can be turned off by that. It’s literally the opposite of what we were taught. I happen to like expensive things, and so I did not marry a kollel guy. I was one of the only ones who did that. I mean really, I think maybe one other person in my entire grade did not marry a kollel guy. I know myself well enough to know I couldn’t do it. I still don’t live an expensive lifestyle being that like most frum families we have many expenses, but I knew I could never live that frugally. I used to feel much more resentful about how this was taught to us, but as I matured, I grew out of it. But I completely hear what OP is saying.

Last edited by giselle on Tue, May 28 2019, 1:48 pm; edited 1 time in total

↑ 33055 ↓

Tue, May 28 2019, 1:28 pm

amother [ Coffee ] wrote:

They can give $15,000 to each person without gift tax consequences annually. They have a lifetime exclusion of $11.4 million.

Last edited by 33055 on Tue, May 28 2019, 1:29 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

↑ Saddlebrown

Tue, May 28 2019, 1:29 pm

Squishy wrote:

The trouble with govt programs is that the govt doesn't care how you spend your money, just that you're making under the limit. So you can spend the bulk of your take home income on clothes and still qualify for food stamps.

But recently there were a few letters in the Lakewood Voice concerning people who fly themselves to E'Y on their own dime, buy designer clothes, and purchase their basics with gift cards from the local tzedakah.

keym ↓

Tue, May 28 2019, 1:40 pm

Here's the thing about programs. Ime a family can be totally legit no lying at all and have a lot more "expendable" income.
Take my friend- 8 kids. She makes 30k. Her husband is a rebbe, makes 30k, but 10k goes to tuitions as qtr- totally legal.
On the books, they make 50k- family of 10.
They get Medicaid.
Chs covers playgroup, babysitting, and daycamp.
Hud covers 70% rent. House for $1800 a month, they pay $300.
Food stamps and WIC cover a large percentage of food bills.
HEAP covers large percentage of electric.
They pay the remaining tuition after qtr-12k a year.
They get a very large tax refund every year (10k).

Bottom line, do the math, being totally legal and on the books, they have a lot more extra cash for food extras, nice clothing, new cars, vacations, sleep over camp, whatever.

↑ ShishKabob

Tue, May 28 2019, 1:46 pm

amother [ Saddlebrown ] wrote:

I honestly don't see how this comes into this discussion.
There are plenty of other threads allocated to bashing receivers of programs.
The op wanted to know how she can handle the non anticipated changes in her neighborhood.

ectomorph

Tue, May 28 2019, 1:58 pm

the reason is very simple.

if a boy wants to learn "forever", he is often looking for a girl from a rich home where he won't have to worry about anything.

and if he does decide to get a job they will easily be able to pay for his education

that's why you see so many of the top learners supporting their families in style ... Mom is from a wealthy family.

It was the same way in Europe.

amother

↑ Plum ↓

Tue, May 28 2019, 2:05 pm

amother [ Purple ] wrote:

THANK YOU Plum! Flower

I want to like this post more than once

Thanks. And that post was written with a lot of self control. Op asked not to bash,so I was gentle.
This topic just gets to me every time.

amother

Periwinkle ↓

Tue, May 28 2019, 2:07 pm

Quote:

in terms of moving someplace with lower standards, I feel like the people with higher standards are moving to different communities and bringing it with them. Not sure if anyplace is "safe".

Agree!
I live OOT and ironically there are 3 sets of people here - the couple of families who are super wealthy and who everyone knows are wealthy, the regular middle class/low class people who moved OOT for a better quality of life and then the "Lakewood kollel" people. This group is the one that boggles my mind. Their kids are by far the best dressed, they almost all own beautiful houses of which they did renovations to, and they push their bugaboos and doonas around a new one for each child.
Sure, it's their money (or their parents) but it is infiltrating into our communities and schools and it's becoming harder and harder to raise children in a society where these are the Klei kodesh who are "sacrificing" for learning

↑ 33055 ↓

Tue, May 28 2019, 2:08 pm

keym wrote:

I am puzzled by this. They don't have any payroll deductions? I couldn't buy food extras, nice clothing, new cars, vacations and sleep away camp for a family half their size on that amount of money.

↑ keym ↓

Tue, May 28 2019, 2:20 pm

Squishy wrote:

I am puzzled by this. They don't have any payroll deductions? I couldn't buy food extras, nice clothing, new cars, vacations and sleep away camp for a family half their size on that amount of money.

Well I don't think they buy all of that all the time.
My point is that they have a more available cash for these things.
And being "poor", they'll get gift cards before yt to clothing and shoe stores, cheaper meat options, and many more such stuff.
So they are living a more physically luxurious life than many of us stuck in very low middle class- not poor enough for programs, nor wealthy enough for expendable cash.

amother

Turquoise

Tue, May 28 2019, 2:21 pm

I think the reason it is irksome is because it is contrary to torah.

Being in kollel can itself be problematic. A man has a halachic obligation to support his family. It's right in the ketuba.

By removing himself from the workforce, he relying on others to support him. Those others may be family, community (clothing gemach, reduced tuition) or government programs.

This may be worth it, if you believe Torah k'neged kulam. But, you have to be aware that it is at the expense of others.

Others are willing to bear this expense because they support Torah learning. But torah learning is nothing without the living of Torah values.

שקר החן והבל היופי

If you are demonstrating your values by spending on sheker and hevel (fancy clothes, over the top houses etc) it makes it hard for others to see the value in supporting you.

The difference between a lamdan and a batlan in the Torah is not the time spent learning, but how that infuses your lifestyle.

Tznius is as much about not showing off by having the fanciest house or clothes as it is about hemlines.

amother

↑ Plum ↓

Tue, May 28 2019, 2:23 pm

giselle wrote:

As a side point, we just spent a lot on a luxury that was paid for by someone else. The money couldn’t be used for anything else. So you really never know. But like I said, I can definitely understand the OP’s point.

We were just offered a luxury that we will not be paying for.
But we still didn't decide if we will take it, for that reason.

It all depends where in society you want to see yourself.

Inspire ↓

Tue, May 28 2019, 2:24 pm

I may be wrong, but I think the govt. grant programs mentioned above were designed for people who could not afford basic needs otherwise. And they are funded through taxes on worker's income. I don't think they were intended for people who use the funds for basics and then use their "other" income to live lavishly. We pay those taxes and live a very modest lifestyle according to our income. B"H, we don't have taiva for fancy clothes, house, cars, vacations, etc. So maybe it is not a legal problem, but an ethical one?