Science vs Torah. And the winner is....

↑ amother ↓

Thu, Nov 08 2007, 10:19 pm

You don't have to see but for me even before I was Lubavitch I read a few stories in the days when there was something online called gopher and the web wasn't known about yet and I wasn't even frum then but even though I was approaching the stories from an objective viewpoint it was hard for me to not start thinking differently about the Rebbe after that, and I was a liberal left leaning typical secular intellectual left coast Jew at the time.

And since then you can say I've heard quite a few more stories.

The ones that really seem mind boggling are the stories like motek brought up from Herman Branover's book where he looked at scientific papers / data and was able to correct in 10 minutes what it took Branover's colleagues 6 months to find. There are other similar stories I've heard as well. This type of stuff which I documented is hard to understand for me but certainly there are a lot of things in this world that are above teva and to me it seems obvious that the Rebbe was also above teva. Obviously it isn't so obvious to other people.

For my own story yes I do believe that the Rebbe was passing on a message to us that we would have kids. Can I prove it? No.

↑ amother ↓

Thu, Nov 08 2007, 10:24 pm

amother wrote:

Quote:

I guess the part that bothers me is that everyone seems to be saying, "Don't you see???!!!" to those who don't see things the same way.

you don't get it.
the point is that just because the Rebbe gives a brocha and it doesn't come out in a obvious manner to be fullfilled, doesn't mean the Rebbe was wrong.

IF the Rebbe had specifically said "you will have a child within the year" and the person didn't have a child, that would be a different story.

do you know anyone that ever happened to?

I get it, I get it. It just doesn't seem all that astounding that he spoke about a common Jewish ritual involving children, and you had a baby. He spoke about lots of things, and lots of people went on to do what people do - marry, have babies, get illnesses, recover or die. As I said, if it's meaningful to you, that's great. But don't expect it to be meaningful to everyone else.

↑ amother ↓

Thu, Nov 08 2007, 11:59 pm

amother wrote:

Quote:

I guess the part that bothers me is that everyone seems to be saying, "Don't you see???!!!" to those who don't see things the same way.

I wasn't the amother with the baby
and no you still don't get it because you are still insisting that we meant something different from what we meant. no one is expecting you to find it meaningfull or wow or anything.
that wasn't the purpose of the posts.
why do you insisit on calling blue - red?

↑ amother ↓

Fri, Nov 09 2007, 12:29 am

Quote:

I wasn't the amother with the baby
and no you still don't get it because you are still insisting that we meant something different from what we meant. no one is expecting you to find it meaningfull or wow or anything. that wasn't the purpose of the posts.
why do you insisit on calling blue - red?

diff. amother here.
Cause there was one poster who said that whoever doesn't see it or get it, must be blind or crazy.

↑ amother ↓

Fri, Nov 09 2007, 1:53 am

amother wrote:

Quote:

I wasn't the amother with the baby
and no you still don't get it because you are still insisting that we meant something different from what we meant. no one is expecting you to find it meaningfull or wow or anything. that wasn't the purpose of the posts.
why do you insisit on calling blue - red?

diff. amother here.
Cause there was one poster who said that whoever doesn't see it or get it, must be blind or crazy.

well then go respond and quote her post, not ours.

↑ gryp ↓

Fri, Nov 09 2007, 10:05 am

Quote:

The ones that really seem mind boggling are the stories like motek brought up from Herman Branover's book where he looked at scientific papers / data and was able to correct in 10 minutes what it took Branover's colleagues 6 months to find

That story is actually in the link I posted in my above post, in the book "To Know and To Care."

The funny thing about this thread is that amother is looking to be impressed by stories but the ones that are being posted are stories that didn't quite end up with a "they lived happily ever after" ending. That's why I posted the above link with all those stories, each one with the name of the person it happened to and where the person lives.

↑ gryp ↓

Fri, Nov 09 2007, 10:24 am

Quote:

Professor Yirmeyahu (Herman) Branover has achieved world-wide renown as an authority on magneto-hydrodynamics. Research in this area of alternative energy technology is carried out by a very limited number of highly trained professionals. Raised in the then Soviet Union, Professor Branover's published research had won him an international reputation in this field in the '60s.
Along with his work on hydrodynamics, Professor Branover has a dynamic Jewish heart. He applied for an emigration visa to Israel, knowing that it would mark the end of his professional career in the Soviet Union. He was dismissed from his post at the Academy of Sciences in Riga and prevented from continuing his research.

During this time, he was exposed to the Torah and mitzvos by members of the Lubavitch chassidic underground. When he was finally allowed to emigrate from the Soviet Union to Israel in 1972, he was already fully observant.

After making aliyah, Professor Branover was in constant demand as a lecturer, but not only in his profession. He was frequently invited to lecture on science and Torah. Campus audiences around the globe were extremely interested to hear an internationally renowned scientist reconcile his belief in the Torah with the supposed conflicts emerging from modern science.

"In the winter of 1973," relates Professor Branover, "I was on a lecture tour in the United States. Towards the end of the two-month tour, Rabbi Avraham Shemtov, one of the leading shluchim, requested that I add the University of Pennsylvania to my itinerary. My wife and I were both weary from the constant travel, but our commitment to spread Torah motivated us to agree.

"Shortly before the scheduled date, I was privileged to visit the Rebbe Shlita at yechidus (a private meeting). Among other matters, I mentioned the trip to Philadelphia. The Rebbe inquired about the details of the program and commented: 'During your stay in Philadelphia, do not forget to introduce yourself to a local professor who has an interest in your field.'

"The Rebbe's statement baffled me. I was well acquainted with the names of the American scientists involved in magneto-hydrodynamics and I knew the universities with which they were associated. I was certain that no Philadelphian was familiar with my field.

"I made the trip to Philadelphia following the busy schedule of lectures. On the morning of my arrival, when Rabbi Shem Tov met me at the train station, I spoke about my encounter with the Rebbe. I mentioned the Rebbe's strange remark and added that it appeared to be an error.

" 'The Rebbe does not make mistakes,' Rabbi Shemtov said emphatically. 'Allow me to assist you in locating the scientist.'

"Rabbi Shemtov convinced me to visit Temple University and the University of Pennsylvania and to check the faculties of these institutions. After many hours of searching, we were introduced to Professor Hsuan Yeh. It was a refreshing change of pace to engage in a sophisticated discussion with a person who was clearly knowledgeable in magneto-hydrodynamics.

As we concluded our conversation, Professor Yeh said: 'In six weeks there will be a Magneto-Hydrodynamic Energy Convention at Stanford University in California. Although the program is already finalized, I will insist that your name be added to the list of lecturers. A colleague who has arrived so recently from Russia should be given the opportunity to present his thoughts.'

"I looked at him in surprise. 'Didn't you just say that the program was finalized?'

Professor Yeh added with a smile, 'You see, I am on the program committee.'

"I appreciated the Professor's offer, and yet I graciously declined, explaining that both my wife and I were anxious to return to our home in Israel. The trip had already been extended more than we would have liked.

"I returned to New York and we prepared to return home. Just before leaving, I wrote the Rebbe a report of our trip to Philadelphia, mentioning my encounter with Professor Yeh. Once again, the Rebbe made an unexpected statement. He advised me to reschedule my plans and to accept the invitation, for the convention presented an important opportunity.

"My wife and I were taken by surprise by the Rebbe's response. Despite the need to rearrange our plans, we were acquainted enough with the Rebbe to value his advice. I called Professor Yeh, who was happy to arrange for me to deliver a lecture.

"The significance of my participation at the convention became clear very rapidly. I met two representatives of the Office of Naval Research in Virginia who had read about my work, and who were prepared to finance further research. They added, 'We understand that you want to establish your laboratory in Israel, and we are willing to provide you with funds for your work there.'

"As a result, I set up a laboratory in Beer Sheva, which has gained worldwide recognition for its magneto-hydrodynamics research. My contract with the Office of Naval Research was been renewed six times since that original grant. I could not have imagined at that point how valuable and far-reaching the Rebbe's advice had been.

This year, 1993, marks twenty years since the Stanford convention. My project has just been awarded a 15-million dollar grant by the United States government to further research and development of this energy technology."

Professor Branover frequently briefs the Rebbe on his various research projects. In one report, he presented a very sophisticated study built upon extensive calculations that had been prepared by computer. As he reviewed the details, the Rebbe remarked: "Two numbers here are inconsistent."

Professor Branover was stunned. "But all the calculations were done by computer and the program used is based on our most advanced theory."

The Rebbe smiled. "With all due respect to the experts, you will see that there is an error."

In the preparation of the calculations, an incongruity indeed had appeared. It took Professor Branover's research team six months to locate it.

Once before Professor Branover was scheduled to address a conference of Jewish scientists, the Rebbe told him: "You have an important message to communicate. Tell your colleagues that as a scholar of solar energy you encourage every Jew to emulate the sun.

"Why is this star of such great importance? There are larger heavenly bodies, indeed, many which dwarf the sun in size. What is unique about the sun? It provides light and generates heat.

"There are other heavenly phenomena called black holes. These are also powerful sources of energy, but in this instance, the energy is directed inward. The black holes pull everything, even the energy they emit, to themselves.

"The sun, by contrast, generously gives of itself to the entire planetary system. So, too, a Jew must radiate Ahavas Yisrael - love for a fellow Jew. After all, if the sun was only capable of heating its own mass, who would have paid any attention to it?"

Professor Branover also is active in developing programs of Jewish education and professional training for Jews in the former Soviet Union and for Russian immigrants to Eretz Yisrael. In the course of these activities, he has been chosen by the Rebbe for several missions.

"In the spring of 1985, I received word from the Rebbe's office that the Rebbe requested to speak to me," relates Professor Branover. "Of course, I arrived at "770" as soon as I could. The Rebbe greeted me and informed me of his desire that I relay his forthcoming message to various persons in Russia. Not in my wildest dreams was I prepared for the content of the message.

"The Rebbe unraveled before me the precise details of the unbelievable change that was going to take place in Russia. With Mikhail Gorbachev's ascent to power, a new era of openness and freedom would begin, the Rebbe prophesied. Waves of Russian Jews would immigrate to Eretz Yisrael. Two years afterwards, in expectation of this wave of immigration, the Rebbe initiated the plan to build a special housing project in Jerusalem for the new immigrants.

"To say that I was stunned is quite an understatement. If I had heard these words from anyone but the Rebbe, I would have dismissed them as fantasy. As such, I was neither surprised nor offended when various people in Russia whom I contacted by phone were skeptical. 'Are you sure this is exactly what the Rebbe said?' they asked again and again. And, may I add, these people were not unfamiliar with the Rebbe. Quite the contrary, these were his own people who were directing the Lubavitch underground activities in Russia. It was simply that the Rebbe's prediction seemed so far-fetched."

"In the spring of 1985, newspapers such as the New York Times and the New York Post had published front-page articles predicting that Gorbachev's government would follow a Communist hard line. This was felt even more powerfully by people who were living in the then Soviet Union.

"When I related the response from Russia to the Rebbe, he requested that I contact them once again, assuring them that these changes would indeed take place.

"The realization of the Rebbe's words is now history. In 1992, when Mikhail Gorbachev visited Israel, I was introduced to him, and I told him and his wife Rayisa what the Rebbe had said seven years earlier. Gorbachev was stunned. 'When I assumed power in 1987, I myself had no concrete plan for the future. I would like to meet this man who knew so much about the direction which my country and I would follow.' "

That's the story of Professor Branover. I read his book Motek mentioned years ago, and it was incredible.

↑ hadasa ↓

Sun, Nov 11 2007, 7:02 am

From the beginning of this thread, I expressly refrained from posting statements like "The Rebbe said so, so it must be true", because I knew that would not be a compelling argument for the non-Lubavitcher posters. Instead, I tried to stick to the logic inherent in the Rebbe's words, irrespective of the fact that he is the Rebbe.

Now that the thread has gone this way anyway, I would like to go back to the article written by a supposedly Lubavitcher scientist.

What nobody seemed to point out is that the Rebbe's geocentric view is not Chas Veshalom based on the theory of relativity. Geocentricity is, according to the Rebbe, the Torah view, and the theory of relativity was only brought to back it up or reconcile it with science.

So even IF (and that's a big IF) I were to accept that the Rebbe could have erred in his understanding of science, that would still not change the fact that this is the Rebbe's understanding of Torah and anyone who does not accept the Rebbe's understanding of Torah cannot, IMO, be considered a Lubavitcher.

Chas Veshalom to say that a different scientific theory could change the Rebbe's understanding in Torah!

To illustrate this point: Professor Branover relates, that when he asked the Rebbe if it is possible that there is life on other planets, the Rebbe's response was based on whether it is possible according to Torah. I.e. the validity of scientific theories is measured by the yardstick of Torah, and not the other way around.

I did not post this before, because I didn't want to turn thsi thread into a discussion of whether the Rebbe is always right or not, but I guess my best efforts didn't help...

↑ Motek ↓

Sun, Nov 11 2007, 5:26 pm

amother wrote:

The same way I can be calm with you. Because I'm comfortable with people expressing their different experiences, knowledge and points of view, even if they differ dramatically from my own. Because I learn from people who say what they think.

Frankly, I'm much more on the same page as Tammy than I am with you, but I have no problem reading your comments, and I'm able to learn from them. What I can't take is the insults because she sees things differently, and may have learned differently. I, too, learned differently from you, and my beliefs over the decades have evolved, along with who I am and what I ponder. You'll have to accept that there are fellow Jews out there who see things differently, but deserve to be here just the same.

I think you should see this as an opportunity to see all of the interesting ways Jews live and think, instead of as an affront to all that you hold dear.

Heretical views are not interesting to Sue or myself or mali or tefila or lots of women here. You don't seem to get that point. Nor do we think these views deserve to be heard on a frum forum.

hadasa - great point!

Why aren't you calm, tolerant and accepting while using your screen name?

↑ Motek

Sun, Nov 11 2007, 5:40 pm

I referred to the Tzemach Tzedek earlier, a respected halachic authority in the 1800's. My husband looked up the quote I mentioned and now I have it in front of me:

Quote:

In every single generation, even after the prophets, Hashem shows signs and wonders in Israel like from the Tanaim and Amoraim as is explained in the Gemara and Medrash, and also after them as we know from the Rokeach and Rabbi Yehuda Ha'Chassid and their colleagues who were anshei mofes me'od - men of great wonders, and also afterwards from the Arizal about whom they said incredible wonders and miracles that Hashem displayed through him, and in his generation was the Beis Yosef z'l who had a malach magid - an angel sent to him [who taught him things], and after them in the generation before ours, the Baal Shem Tov z'l, the likes of whom did not exist since the earliest times, incredible wonders and miracles, that were supernatural were seen through him as I heard from my grandfather [the Baal Ha'Tanya], that he [the Baal Shem Tov] and his student the Maggid, would see from one end of the world to the other literally with their power of sight and would say what they saw there and it was seen to be true by their students, and this was because the light that was created on the first day [of creation, and then hidden] was revealed to them, which was hidden within Torah. All these genuine miracles reveal the revelation of the Ohr Ein Sof blessed is He, which is bli gevul - infinite. And also from my grandfather we heard predictions that were right on target.

↑ amother ↓

Sun, Nov 11 2007, 6:11 pm

Motek wrote:

Heretical views are not interesting to Sue or myself or mali or tefila or lots of women here. You don't seem to get that point. Nor do we think these views deserve to be heard on a frum forum.

This breaks my heart, because it's everyone's life dream to be interesting and acceptable to you, Sue and Mali. Assuming you three are really different people, something I've wondered about from time to time...

↑ amother ↓

Sun, Nov 11 2007, 6:59 pm

Quote:

Assuming you three are really different people, something I've wondered about from time to time...

I know who 3 out of 4 of them are and they are all different people living in different places

besides which their writing styles are all different from each other

but why am I bothering to even tell you that? Rolling Eyes

↑ Ruchel

Sun, Nov 11 2007, 7:04 pm

Motek writes very well and is very learned. Not all the others do or are. One has a very distinctive style too.

↑ amother ↓

Sun, Nov 11 2007, 7:16 pm

I really don't think its necessary to do a comparison of their intellects for all to read Confused

its certainly not very nice

↑ gryp ↓

Sun, Nov 11 2007, 7:55 pm

Quote:

Assuming you three are really different people, something I've wondered about from time to time...

Oh, here we go again...

↑ amother ↓

Sun, Nov 11 2007, 8:02 pm

I confess:

I am Motek
and mali
and tefila
and Crayon
and GR
and tzenaRena
and ..................anyone else?

↑ hadasa ↓

Wed, Nov 14 2007, 10:23 am

Just a thought - how do you explain that the same posters who are disturbed by the terms "Navi" or "greatest Tzaddik in the past 3,000 years" when referring to the Rebbe, have no problem ascribing to 21st century MO Rabbis the authority to re-interpret Psukim from Torah in ways that contradict the literal meaning and the traditional understanding held by all Chachamim of the past 3,000 years?

↑ amother ↓

Wed, Nov 14 2007, 10:35 am

hadasa wrote:

Today's rabbis are no less qualified (or more qualified, for that matter, as it depends on the intelligence of the individual rabbi) to re-interpret and analyze than any other learned Jewish authorities of the last 3000 years. That's how it works. The laws are given in literal ways that don't always apply to historical, scientific and intellectual changes and breakthroughs, and it's up to modern rabbis (and other extremely learned intellectuals) to interpret for us. The Rebbe is one of those extremely gifted and learned intellectuals, and he is well-respected in all circles, even MO. And, as time passes, there are others who will hold our attention and merit our compliance to their suggestions. Time marches on.

↑ hadasa ↓

Wed, Nov 14 2007, 10:49 am

At the moment I wasn't speaking about laws - which IMO, cannot be "re-interpreted", only "applied" to new situations.

But I was referring to Psukim telling us about the creation of the world and of man. The Rebbe would never invent new interpretations that contradict the literal understanding of Chazal, Rishonim and Acharonim.

↑ amother ↓

Wed, Nov 14 2007, 10:52 am

Sorry I misunderstood what you meant.