Science vs Torah. And the winner is....

↑ mali ↓

Wed, Nov 07 2007, 8:03 pm

TammyTammy wrote:

mali wrote:

The Rebbe's prophecies were fulfilled one by one (many times against all odds, like with the prediction that the Jews will be victorious in the six-day-war and that nothing will happen to EY during the gulf war).

Are those the only prophecies he made?

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And, more specifically, did he get every one right?

yes

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We're only waiting now for the final prophecy, about Moshaich coming in our generation, to be fulfilled.

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And what if, chas v'shalom, he was wrong and Moshiach does not come in this generation?

you're asking a believer Smile

. that's not even a possibility.

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Again, you obviously don't want to believe, but be careful with how you talk about the Rebbe.

I believe that I have been respectful throughout. Denying that someone has Ruach HaKodesh or superhuman intelligence without evidence of either is not disrespectful.

a - you don't want to believe - you said it yourself. don't mix the word 'evidence' into it. even if I bring you 1,000 proofs now, you have still chosen not to believe Sad

. your starting point is a subjective one . (and I'm not gonna force you to do so, just as I will not force you to believe that the world was created in six days. I will try to explain if you wish, and I can certainly prove it, but you seem to be quite fixed on your opinion).

b - I was referring to the comparison you made. just be careful!

↑ TammyTammy

Wed, Nov 07 2007, 8:06 pm

amother wrote:

mali wrote:

tammy mali just gave you something you didn't respond to.

it is documented, the rebbe's prediction about the war. Where most of the world couldn't comprehend how Israel could have one the war, The Rebbe already predicted before hand.

and the gulf war? how do you explain that, with all those scuds aimed at israel the only person who died, was from a heart attack. And again, the Rebbe predicted it.
these are not just personal accounts from any amother, or yo-shmo. these were public

OK, first of all, I'd have to see the prophecies. Can you please point me to them?

Secondly, even if he was correct about these matters, were there other matters that he was incorrect about?

Thirdly, even if he got everything 100% right, what are the odds that such a thing could happen? After all, I can predict that the sun will rise tomorrow, but that hardly makes me a Neviah.

Fourthly (is there even such a word?) even if all that pans out, would he fit the halachic definition of a Navi (I.e. without a Sanhedrin, is it even possible to declare a person a Navi today)?

Tammy

↑ mali

Wed, Nov 07 2007, 8:28 pm

TammyTammy wrote:

OK, first of all, I'd have to see the prophecies. Can you please point me to them?

http://www.chabad.org/multimed.....1.htm - this is one of them.

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Secondly, even if he was correct about these matters, were there other matters that he was incorrect about?

no. I challenge you to find one!

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Thirdly, even if he got everything 100% right, what are the odds that such a thing could happen? After all, I can predict that the sun will rise tomorrow, but that hardly makes me a Neviah.

it doesn't make you a neviah at all! take the example of the six day war - no one in his wildest dreams, was able to think of, nevermind predict, such a quick and total victory - besides for the Rebbe.

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Fourthly (is there even such a word?) even if all that pans out, would he fit the halachic definition of a Navi (I.e. without a Sanhedrin, is it even possible to declare a person a Navi today)?

you might find these articles helpful:
http://www.askmoses.com/articl.....dns=1
http://www.askmoses.com/articl.....dns=1

The Rambam in Hilchos Nevuah discusses the requirements of a true prophet. If you feel up to it, you can learn it inside. The articles above offer a shorter and longer explanation (the longer one being a translation of the Rambam).

↑ Motek ↓

Wed, Nov 07 2007, 9:56 pm

TammyTammy wrote:

I can't give you a "one size fits all" rule.

If you can't tell me what constitutes proof for you, how surprising that you expect me to provide any examples. And you don't even remain neutral until it can be proven or disproven. You have declared at the outset that you don't believe.

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And even if I, personally, can't come up with an alternate explanation, that doesn't mean that there isn't one.

Why? Maybe that's what it means. Can you prove your assertion that it doesn't mean there isn't one?

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And on what basis do you decide whether or not a tzaddik has?

Ah, so here I will follow your lead (in other threads) and ask you to please answer my question.

TammyTammy wrote:

BTW, I thought this thread was about science and Torah. When did it become about the Rebbe ZT"L and Ruach HaKodesh?

Go back a few posts and you'll see ... I doubt you forgot so quickly.

TammyTammy wrote:

Right. Nor am I required to believe.

The line goes: If you believe all the stories, you're a fool. If you think they all couldn't happen, you're a heretic.

Just curious - who was the most recent tzaddik in history that you believe had ruach ha'kodesh?

TammyTammy wrote:

In other words, if I understand Motek correctly, means that the Rebbe would have known all these things simply through his own study and/or observation even without Ruach HaKodesh.

You only quoted half the sentence, leaving out the part about supernatural knowledge.

The 6th Lubavitcher Rebbe said, in order to read a pidyon nefesh (a kvittel) you need ruach ha'kodesh and he spent thirty years reading them. How do you understand that?

The Tzemach Tzedek (3rd Lubavitcher Rebbe), who is recognized universally as a halachic authority, writes about the Baal Shem Tov and the Mezritcher Maggid that they saw from one end of the world to the other with physical sight, and that he saw miraculous things with his grandfather, the Baal Ha'Tanya.

There are many other such statements written in sefarim, authored by respected rabbis.

R' Chaim Volozhiner writes miraculous things about the Vilna Gaon too, about things he knew in a supernatural manner. Sefardim have their own stories about their chachamim and the miracles they performed. So these stories about ruach ha'kodesh and supernatural abilities are accepted in Chasidic, non-Chasidic, and Sefardic circles, but you reject them. Of course this just makes me wonder why you are on this forum.

↑ Sue DaNym ↓

Wed, Nov 07 2007, 10:45 pm

tammy how could u say such things about the rebbe? he is the nasi hador and everyone knows that he is a navi. do you know the penalty for someone who denies a navi? idont want to be u.

lamah lo yraisem ladber bavdi bmenachem mendel?? this is a man who is the greatest man in the last 3000 years to grace the earth and you casually dismiss him as a normal person??? how dare u?? who do u think u are?? yur nothing compared to the rebbe and u have the chutzpah to say that he doesnt have ruach hakodesh? this is something that is so obvious to anyone with even basic intelleigence that u have to be willingly blind to miss it.

but why am I even bothering? after all yur someone who openly brags that u dont believe in torah misinai so why should u believe anything about the rebbe who is the nasi hador?

you ought to be ashamed of yurself

↑ amother ↓

Wed, Nov 07 2007, 11:01 pm

amother wrote:

what do you call getting it wrong tammy?

The Rebbe gave advice that my fathers family should take his little sister for a certain type of new treatment and gave a brocha.

She died anyway.
Does that mean the Rebbe got it wrong?
NO, it meants the Rebbe wasn't the one who had the choice of whether she lives or dies.
That was in G-d's hands
The Rebbe can only do so much. That doesn't prove there was no Ruach Hakodesh.

That story is a perfect illustration of the problem with these arguments. The Rebbe got something right, you say how perfectly he saw everything, and was never wrong.

He got something wrong, it's not that he was wrong, it's that it was in G-d's hands.

So there was no way for him to be wrong, except when he was wrong?

↑ amother ↓

Wed, Nov 07 2007, 11:15 pm

Sue DaNym wrote:

amother wrote:

You need to calm down. You're on a public forum, where differences of opinion and interpretation are openly discussed.

if itwas just a matter of a disagreement I could be calm. but she takes pleasure in bashing tzadikkim with great glee and chutzpah and denying hte torah and pushing views taht are repugnant to all maaminim. how can I be calm? how can u be calm?!

The same way I can be calm with you. Because I'm comfortable with people expressing their different experiences, knowledge and points of view, even if they differ dramatically from my own. Because I learn from people who say what they think.

Frankly, I'm much more on the same page as Tammy than I am with you, but I have no problem reading your comments, and I'm able to learn from them. What I can't take is the insults because she sees things differently, and may have learned differently. I, too, learned differently from you, and my beliefs over the decades have evolved, along with who I am and what I ponder. You'll have to accept that there are fellow Jews out there who see things differently, but deserve to be here just the same.

I think you should see this as an opportunity to see all of the interesting ways Jews live and think, instead of as an affront to all that you hold dear.

↑ amother ↓

Wed, Nov 07 2007, 11:22 pm

amother wrote:

your trying to twist my story.

the Rebbe wasn't wrong. He didn't tell the family that my aunt will get better.
He made no promises, he made a suggestion, that's all.
But he never promised she would get better.
And sometimes even when a tzaddik is involved in trying to help someone be healed, Hashem says no!
Hashem said no to many tzaddikim in our history. That doesn't mean they didn't have Ruach hakodesh.
Please don't twist my story to make it look like I said something I didn't.

↑ amother ↓

Wed, Nov 07 2007, 11:27 pm

amother wrote:

First of all, he made a suggestion that they try a new type of treatment. Not being a physician, I don't know why they should have taken this advice. And the advice was wrong. Is it possible a different course of treatment might have worked?

But forget that issue for a moment. I don't see how this story illustrates anything about the Rebbe. So he gave advice which was wrong. Anybody can do that. And what if he hadn't given medical advice at all? After all, not being a physician, he might choose not to give any advice in this situation. Your point would say that Hashem decides these things. So this says nothing about the Rebbe, as far as I can tell. This story means nothing more than if you had told a story about the Rebbe suggesting that someone have chicken instead of beef. What does it prove about the Rebbe? Am I missing something?

↑ amother ↓

Wed, Nov 07 2007, 11:32 pm

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this is a man who is the greatest man in the last 3000 years to grace the earth and you casually dismiss him as a normal person??? how dare u?? who do u think u are?? yur nothing compared to the rebbe and u have the chutzpah to say that he doesnt have ruach hakodesh? this is something that is so obvious to anyone with even basic intelleigence that u have to be willingly blind to miss it.

Uh, no, actually the Satmar Rebbe Z"tl was the greatest man in the last 3000 years. Or maybe it was Rav Shach z"tl. Now lets hear what YOU have to say about THEM!!

I guess there many, many blind jews who are missing some basic intelligence. Rolling Eyes

I'm not saying anything bad about the Lub. Rebbe z"tl. I know he was a big tzaddik, but sorry, your comments are very childish.

↑ amother ↓

Wed, Nov 07 2007, 11:40 pm

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First of all, he made a suggestion that they try a new type of treatment. Not being a physician, I don't know why they should have taken this advice.

there were no other options, it was either that or let her die

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And the advice was wrong. Is it possible a different course of treatment might have worked?

no
she died of leukemia, before the days of bone marrow transplants. in the days where there wasn't much hope for the illness, other then experimental therapies.

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But forget that issue for a moment. I don't see how this story illustrates anything about the Rebbe.

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So he gave advice which was wrong.

The advice wasn't wrong! what was wrong about it? should they have just done nothing? The Rebbe suggested trying something out but didn't make any promises that it would work. that does not mean he was wrong.
If a doctor tells a person that there is not much chance he will live but lets try out this new therapy, there is nothing to lose, and then the person dies, does that make the doctor wrong?
no! he did his best and tried not to give up on his patient even when the end seemed obvious.

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Anybody can do that. And what if he hadn't given medical advice at all?

she would have died

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After all, not being a physician, he might choose not to give any advice in this situation.

Now lets get something straight.
the Rebbe did not give medical advice in this story!
He heard about this new therapy and suggested they give it a shot...there was nothign to lose!

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So this says nothing about the Rebbe, as far as I can tell. This story means nothing more than if you had told a story about the Rebbe suggesting that someone have chicken instead of beef. What does it prove about the Rebbe? Am I missing something?

yes you are. you are missing the point!

the point being that if a tzaddik gives a brocha and hashem says no anyway, that doesn't take away their tzidkus nor does it make it wrong, nor does it mean they don't have ruach hakodesh.
Maybe the Rebbe saw there was a small ray of hope but hashem decided in the end no is no.

↑ BeershevaBubby

Thu, Nov 08 2007, 1:10 am

Sue DaNym wrote:

lamah lo yraisem ladber bavdi bmenachem mendel?? this is a man who is the greatest man in the last 3000 years to grace the earth and you casually dismiss him as a normal person??? how dare u?? who do u think u are?? yur nothing compared to the rebbe and u have the chutzpah to say that he doesnt have ruach hakodesh? this is something that is so obvious to anyone with even basic intelleigence that u have to be willingly blind to miss it.

Maybe my TaNaCH timeline is off, but are you actually saying that the Lubavitcher Rebbe was greater than Shmuel haNavi, David haMelech, Shlomo haMelech, Eliyahu haNavi and a number of other Neviim??? (Not to mention the great Torah illuminaries of our time like oh, I don't know... Rashi, Rambam, etc)

↑ amother ↓

Thu, Nov 08 2007, 8:05 am

amother wrote:

sigh! lets try again.
The point is, that just because hashem didn't fullfill the Rebbe's brocha doesn't mean the Rebbe was wrong.
are you trying to tell me the rebbe shouldn't have given a brocha coz she was going to die anyway.
The Rebbe made no predictions to be wrong about
The advice wasn't wrong! what was wrong about it? should they have just done nothing? The Rebbe suggested trying something out but didn't make any promises that it would work. that does not mean he was wrong.
If a doctor tells a person that there is not much chance he will live but lets try out this new therapy, there is nothing to lose, and then the person dies, does that make the doctor wrong?
no! he did his best and tried not to give up on his patient even when the end seemed obvious.

Now lets get something straight.
the Rebbe did not give medical advice in this story!
He heard about this new therapy and suggested they give it a shot...there was nothign to lose!

the point being that if a tzaddik gives a brocha and hashem says no anyway, that doesn't take away their tzidkus nor does it make it wrong, nor does it mean they don't have ruach hakodesh.
Maybe the Rebbe saw there was a small ray of hope but hashem decided in the end no is no.

Once again, a story where somebody neglects to give out all the facts in the telling (there were no more treatment options, she was doomed to die no matter what) and expects everyone to understand. You didn't say that there were no other options.

But if there were no other options, and the Rebbe had any power to see what ordinary people could not, he certainly would have told them to cherish the time they had left, as there was no cure. Instead, he gave them false hope, even though he did so out of the kindness heart because he was a caring man, but this just shows he was infallible like the rest of us.

So I can't see what your story proves at all, except that he wanted to help this family by offering hope and a brocha, but that, like all of us mortals, it wasn't in his power to help.

If your point is that he was a good man, nobody is arguing. If your point was that he didn't have the power to change G-d's will, of course we'll agree with that -- no human being does.

gryp ↓

Thu, Nov 08 2007, 9:44 am

Paraphrasing shluchamom who explained it nicely in another thread, Chassidus explains the difference between a bracha a Tzaddik gives and a Tefila (prayer).

Many times the bracha a person needs is in Shomayim and can come down but there is something, a kind of obstacle, blocking the way. When a Tzaddik gives a bracha he is able to remove that obstacle.
A minhag we have in Chabad is to take on a new mitzvah, a new hiddur mitzvah, a new hachlata, and by doing that we prepare ourselves to accept the bracha. A bracha is compared to rain, and just as when rain comes down it needs a vessel to collect in if you want to catch it, by accepting upon ourselves a new mitzvah, we are making ourselves into a vessel so that we can "catch" the bracha.

Tefila is different. We all know Tefila can change a gezeira (decree) in Heaven. It also says "Tzaddik Gozer V'Hakadosh Baruch Hu Mikayem," "A Tzaddik decrees and Hashem will fulfill it." By davening, we can in essence, create a new G-dly will.