Science vs Torah. And the winner is....

↑ amother ↓

Wed, Nov 07 2007, 6:47 pm

TammyTammy wrote:

I'm not prepared to believe that the Rebbe ZT"L

your not prepared to believe it...

I think that says it all. It wont make much difference whether the Rebbe does or doesn't have ruach hakodesh and it won't make much difference the countless personal accounts where his ruach hakodesh has been "proven"
none of it makes a difference because.........your not prepared to believe it

your own words tammy,
you said it!

↑ TammyTammy ↓

Wed, Nov 07 2007, 7:02 pm

amother wrote:

TammyTammy wrote:

I'm not prepared to believe that the Rebbe ZT"L

Right. Nor am I required to believe.

Nonetheless, if given some evidence, I may reconsider my position. As it stands right now, however, no.

(BTW, you don't have to be anonymous... I haven't bitten off anyone's head yet.)

Tammy

↑ TammyTammy ↓

Wed, Nov 07 2007, 7:07 pm

I also find it very interesting how the argument switched from "superhuman intelligence" to "Ruach HaKodesh." The two are not the same thing.

Motek said the Rebbe ZT"L had "superhuman intellegence" and even further stated that the Rebbe knew these things NOT through "mystical" or "supernatural" means (which would include Ruach HaKodesh). In other words, if I understand Motek correctly, means that the Rebbe would have known all these things simply through his own study and/or observation even without Ruach HaKodesh.

Tammy

↑ amother ↓

Wed, Nov 07 2007, 7:18 pm

LOL tammy don't you get it?

by stating you are "not prepared to believe" you are admitting to a bias

you are basically telling us you don't WANT to believe so it won't make a difference whether there is evidence or not.

its got nothing to do with being required to believe or not.

someone can show me a door thats painted blue and even then I am not required to believe that the door is blue.

↑ TammyTammy ↓

Wed, Nov 07 2007, 7:24 pm

"Not prepared to believe" is a colloquialism that is not meant to be interpreted literally.

In any event, even if I outright dismiss the notion that the Rebbe ZT"L had Ruach HaKodesh (something I didn't know, because I don't *know* one way or the other), that still changes little.

I'm not an unreasonable person. If you can produce evidence that someone has Ruach HaKodesh, I'll evaluate it. But you or Motek or anyone else simply asserting that the Rebbe ZT"L (or anyone else) had Ruach HaKodesh does not necessarily make it so.

Likewise, if you can prove to me that the Rebbe ZT"L had superhuman intelligence (like an IQ of 250 or more), I'll be prepared to evaluate it as well. Motek's assertion that he had superhuman intelligence (which is NOT the same as Ruach HaKodesh) is just that -- an assertion.

Tammy

↑ TammyTammy ↓

Wed, Nov 07 2007, 7:26 pm

amother wrote:

someone can show me a door thats painted blue and even then I am not required to believe that the door is blue.

Whoops, I forgot to address this point:

You're correct that you wouldn't be required to believe the door is blue. You'd simply be mistaken. I could be mistaken about the Rebbe ZT"L. But there are those who seem to think that I am actually *required* to believe that tzaddik X (take your pick -- I'm not specifically talking about the Rebbe ZT"L here) had Ruach HaKodesh.

Sorry, but I don't *have to* believe it.

Tammy

↑ amother ↓

Wed, Nov 07 2007, 7:33 pm

I don't want to tell you my personal stories because they may reveal who I am to some posters and I dont' want them knowing I'm here, but yes I personally have had experience where the Rebbe knew what my unspoken plans were going to be and expressed his displeasure with them.

my mother too had a very obvious Ruach hakodesh situation with the Rebbe where the Rebbe knew what she was up to and showed a sense of humor at the same time.
There are countless stories documented. I don't see that we should have to bring you an example. If you live in the jewish world at all and on the internet you must have come across stories of the Rebbe.

↑ TammyTammy ↓

Wed, Nov 07 2007, 7:42 pm

amother wrote:

That's fine... and that may constitute enough evidence for you - but it doesn't for me - and it doesn't have to.

Quote:

There are countless stories documented. I don't see that we should have to bring you an example. If you live in the jewish world at all and on the internet you must have come across stories of the Rebbe.

And if you have access to the internet, you must be able to come across thousands of stories of Christian ministers and faith healers of all faiths (l'havdil) who could claim to do things that ordinary humans can't. But just because they claimed that they happened, that doesn't mean that they did.

(To be fair, it doesn't mean that they didn't either... until I have evidence one way or the other, I'm inclined to disbelieve it.)

Furthermore, you have to ask how many cases there are where the Rebbe ZT"L got it wrong and where his advice didn't pan out. I have no doubt that among some of the "True Believers", there *are* no such cases, but I would find that hard to believe. The question is, for every case where the Rebbe ZT"L was correct, how many cases are there where he was wrong? 1/1000? 1/100? 1/10? 2? 10? Who knows? I don't. But it's an important metric.

Much like (l'havdil) the guy with the hot stock tips, it's not a question of how many times he was right... it's a question of the *percentage of times* he was right. A million people could vouch for his stock tips, and that sounds impressive, but if ten million say that his advice stank, then the record isn't so good anymore.

Tammy

↑ amother ↓

Wed, Nov 07 2007, 7:46 pm

what do you call getting it wrong tammy?

The Rebbe gave advice that my fathers family should take his little sister for a certain type of new treatment and gave a brocha.

She died anyway.
Does that mean the Rebbe got it wrong?
NO, it meants the Rebbe wasn't the one who had the choice of whether she lives or dies.
That was in G-d's hands
The Rebbe can only do so much. That doesn't prove there was no Ruach Hakodesh.

↑ TammyTammy ↓

Wed, Nov 07 2007, 7:47 pm

amother wrote:

also, tammy, no one is saying you have to believe,
I'm not sure why you feel you have to keep asserting that.

your believing or not believing doesn't change facts

Sorry... I'll admit it's a sore point with me. I've been told by members of Chabad that one is *required* to believe that the Rebbe ZT"L had Ruach HaKodesh and was a Navi. I've almost been cursed out (fortunately, the women were slightly more refined than that) for suggesting that the possibility might be otherwise.

Tammy

↑ TammyTammy ↓

Wed, Nov 07 2007, 7:50 pm

amother wrote:

Amother,

We're not talking about brachos here. Many Rebbes and tzadikkim give brachos that may or may not be fulfilled. We're talking about advice that the Rebbe ZT"L might have given to people on how to proceed in life. That's different than a bracha.

Tammy

↑ mali ↓

Wed, Nov 07 2007, 7:53 pm

The Rebbe's prophecies were fulfilled one by one (many times against all odds, like with the prediction that the Jews will be victorious in the six-day-war and that nothing will happen to EY during the gulf war). We're only waiting now for the final prophecy, about Moshaich coming in our generation, to be fulfilled.

Again, you obviously don't want to believe, but be careful with how you talk about the Rebbe.

↑ TammyTammy ↓

Wed, Nov 07 2007, 7:53 pm

mali wrote:

Tammy, you don't have to agree with our views, but your above post is totally disrespectful towards the Rebbe, and you wrote things off the top of your head, without proving them (and I'm sure you won't be able to prove them if you tried, but that's a different issue).

Mali,

You're right... I didn't prove them. Nor did I say that I would be able to.

I didn't say the Rebbe ZT"L had Ruach HaKodesh. I didn't say that he didn't. I said that I don't know, and as in most things in life, if I hear a claim that is fantastic and I don't know if it's true or not, then I'm inclined to disbelieve it until evidence is offered to it's veracity. As of this moment, I don't have evidence that the Rebbe ZT"L had Ruach HaKodesh, so I'm inclined not to believe it. Could I be wrong? Sure! Show me evidence otherwise and I'll be happy to evaluate it.

I fail to see how stating that is disrespectful.

Tammy

↑ TammyTammy ↓

Wed, Nov 07 2007, 7:56 pm

mali wrote:

Are those the only prophecies he made? And, more specifically, did he get every one right?

Quote:

We're only waiting now for the final prophecy, about Moshaich coming in our generation, to be fulfilled.

And what if, chas v'shalom, he was wrong and Moshiach does not come in this generation?

Quote:

Again, you obviously don't want to believe, but be careful with how you talk about the Rebbe.

I believe that I have been respectful throughout. Denying that someone has Ruach HaKodesh or superhuman intelligence without evidence of either is not disrespectful.

Tammy

↑ amother ↓

Wed, Nov 07 2007, 7:58 pm

mali wrote:

tammy mali just gave you something you didn't respond to.

it is documented, the rebbe's prediction about the war. Where most of the world couldn't comprehend how Israel could have one the war, The Rebbe already predicted before hand.

and the gulf war? how do you explain that, with all those scuds aimed at israel the only person who died, was from a heart attack. And again, the Rebbe predicted it.
these are not just personal accounts from any amother, or yo-shmo. these were public

↑ amother ↓

Wed, Nov 07 2007, 8:00 pm

oh sorry I didn't see this

Quote:

Are those the only prophecies he made? And, more specifically, did he get every one right?

are you serious? Do we need to provide you with every single prophecy for you to believe he had ruach hakodesh?

you asked for examples, we gave it to you and now you say its not enough?

as I said before, you said it all when you said you are not prepared to believe