Science vs Torah. And the winner is....

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↑ miriam ↓

Fri, Nov 02 2007, 2:17 pm

It gets interesting in here. Here is the beginning of the issue - another quote to ponder upon:

Quote:

What is the Jewish view regarding the shape of the earth and the relative movement of the earth and the sun? Sefer HaZohar, in Parashat VaYikra tells us as follows: (literal translation) "In the book of Rav Himnona it explains that the whole world spins around in a circle like a sphere. Some people are below and some people are above... and because of that, there is a place in the world, when it is light for some it is dark for others. For some it is day and for others it is night. And, there is a place where it is always day and it is never night, except for a very short period of time."

In this description, we see a clear understanding of the fact that the earth is shaped like a sphere and spins around its axis in a 24 hour cycle, as opposed to the theories of the flat earth and the sun orbiting around the earth. We also see an understanding that people live all around the earth and while it is day for those on the side facing the sun, it is night for those who live on the other side away from the sun. Not only that, but as we know today, there is indeed a place (near the poles of the earth) where the day can be very long while the night is very short.

In Tehilim 19:5 we find the following verse: “For the sun He has set a tent in them” - God set the planets as a tent for the sun. The Meiri (1249-1315) interprets this verse as proof that the sun is at the center and the planets are around it. The Meiri comments on this verse that God fastened the sun's tent among the planets and in their middle. In his Introduction to Bais Habechira, the Meiri elaborates on this idea and writes, “The law of God is perfect concerning what is placed next to this matter. He hints with it to the bodies of the spheres, meaning to say the seven planets with the sun in the middle, with his saying, ‘For the sun He has set a tent in them.’” As we can see, the Jewish view that the sun is at the center among the planets was recorded in Tehilim, even earlier than the Zohar.

The sun and stars orbiting around the earth is the Greek and the Christian view of the world. This is not, and never was, the Jewish view. In that case, why did the Talmud and the Rambam (1138-1204) present the Greek theory and ignored the Jewish knowledge? The answer is simple, and is given by the Rambam in Sefer Zmanim, Hilchot Kiddush HaChodesh, at the end of Ch. 17: (literal translation) "And the reason for all these calculations... and how do we know each of these things, and the proof for each and every thing, this is the wisdom of periods and calculations about which the Greek scholars composed many books, and these are the books which are now available to the scholars. But, the books composed by the Jewish scholars from the tribe of Yissachar at the times of the prophets, did not reach our hands." The Jewish books were lost, and the only books available were those written by the Greeks. Sefer Hazohar was also not available for study in the Rambam's time, except to a few Mekubalim in Eretz Israel.

The Rambam continues and sets the stage for how to deal with new scientific knowledge: "We do not worry about who is the author (of the knowledge), whether it was authored by the prophets or by the gentiles. Because, in every subject for which its reasoning was discovered and its truth became known through faultless evidence, we do not rely on the person who said it or who taught it, but, on the evidence which was discovered and the reason which became known." This is a dramatic deviation from the classical religious blind reliance on the authority of a Rabbi who makes a religious ruling. According to the Rambam, when it comes to establishing scientific knowledge, personal authority carries no weight.

↑ Sue DaNym ↓

Sun, Nov 04 2007, 11:57 pm

amother wrote:

The Lubavitcher Rebbe mentioned it in one of his letters, not knowing that the source is unreliable.

Unfortunately, this is a distortion of relativity which was misrepresented to the Lubavitcher Rebbe by someone who did not understand relativity.

in other words this guy thinks the rebbe was unaware of the laws of physics and could be fooled by someone who didnt know them either. that is chutzpah! you cant say that the rebbe was unaware of anything. hes the nasi hador and this guy has the nerve to say that the rebbe "didn't know." shock

↑ amother ↓

Mon, Nov 05 2007, 9:45 am

Dovid Hamelech, the Rambam, the Baal Shem Tov, and the Alter Rebbe also didn't know the theory of general relativity or of quantum mechanics. So, What's the big deal?

↑ Motek ↓

Mon, Nov 05 2007, 11:13 am

sigh

sue - the Rebbe knew that information because he was extremely well-versed in the sciences. He did not attribute his knowledge to mystical insights or supernatural means.

and so amother, there is no "also" here (although one of the earlier Lubavitcher Rebbeim was aware of something (re the anatomy) through his knowledge of Chassidus, before it was announced as a scientific discovery).

↑ amother ↓

Mon, Nov 05 2007, 12:43 pm

Motek, you just validated the author's point.

Quote:

the Rebbe knew that information because he was extremely well-versed in the sciences. He did not attribute his knowledge to mystical insights or supernatural means.

"General relativity", as opposed to "special relativity", happens to be one of the rare topics which were probably not studied by the Rebbe, (nor by 99% of the physicists in the world either.)

↑ Motek ↓

Mon, Nov 05 2007, 2:24 pm

The Rebbe did not make mistakes in his letters. If the author thinks so, then you should not refer to him as a Lubavitcher scientist.

Are you his wife or relative? I see that after I commented that he doesn't say his yeshiva background, he added that he is a Chassid etc. (though he still hasn't stated his Torah credentials).

↑ miriam

Tue, Nov 06 2007, 1:26 pm

I emailed the author (his email is in the article) and turned his
attention to this discussion. Here is his reply:

Personal insults are the best compliments an author can get from
opponents. In an intelligent discussion, when opponents find mistakes in an
idea, they point out the mistakes, and sometimes suggest corrections.
That's how we all learn from each other and make progress. That's also
how it is done in the Gemara and Poskim. Sometimes opponents dislike an
idea for emotional/social/political reasons. They cannot find anything
wrong in the essence of the idea itself, yet they dislike it. So, to
protect their ego or emotions, they resort to personal insults against the
author. Such insults are a statement which says: "I tried to find
mistakes in your ideas, but I couldn't find any. I don't know how to
improve on them either. Lacking the ability to talk to the point, let me
attack you personally, hoping that you will not notice that I couldn't find
any mistakes in your ideas."

By the way, the Rebbe had tremendous respect for scientists and tried
to learn from them as much as he could. He didn't always agree with
everything, but, he took the time to learn and understand all positions,
including the ones he did not agree with. The Rebbe was not ashamed to
ask for help in areas where he did not have the answers. See, for
example, the very first Igeret #1 in Igrot Kodesh Vol. 1. In this Igeret the Rebbe also acknowledges that the Rambam based his model of the world on the Greek philosophy, particularly Aristotle. The Rebbe also acknowledged there that sometimes the rabbis preferred the scientists' view over their own.

So, thank you all for validating, so far, the ideas presented in the
article. If you have any corrections or suggestions for improvements,
they will be appreciated.

↑ TammyTammy ↓

Tue, Nov 06 2007, 1:37 pm

Motek wrote:

sigh

sue - the Rebbe knew that information because he was extremely well-versed in the sciences. He did not attribute his knowledge to mystical insights or supernatural means.

Motek,

Are you trying to tell us that the Rebbe zt"l knew more about physics in the one or two years that he may have studied it than people who have advanced university degrees and spent their entire lives in the field?

(And remember, you said that he attributed his knowledge to his own studies, not to "mystical insights or supernatural means.")

Tammy

Apple pie

Tue, Nov 06 2007, 2:14 pm

Ribbie Danzinger wrote:

Interestingly, I just saw a reply to a question on the net that when the Talmud (Shvuot 29a) describes something that is impossible, it mentions "a camel running through the air" (a flying camel), whereas the Rambam (Shmonah Perakim ch. 1) describes "an iron ship running through the air" as something which is the epitome of an impossibility. If we consider an airplane as "an iron ship running through the air" (which in my opinion is a legitimate description of an airplane), we can learn from this that the sanctity of the Rishonim in the Talmud was on a level that makes their words irrefutable, however the sages of later generations may have made mistakes based on the scientific knowledge available in their days.

Or maybe there is somebody out there who doesn't believe in airplanes?

Just read the 13 (!!!) pages of this very interesting thread... I think nobody really picked up on Ribbie's remark. If I understand correctly, this means that the Rambam, despite being a great Tzadik and Posek, did not *know* about airplanes...

↑ TammyTammy ↓

Tue, Nov 06 2007, 2:55 pm

Apple pie wrote:

Ribbie Danzinger wrote:

What's impossible in one day and age is very possible in another day and age.

From the beginning of time until about 170 years ago information traveled no faster than a horse or ship. In 1815, the Battle of New Orleans was fought between the U.S. and the British two full weeks after the war of 1812 was over because word of the peace treaty did not reach New Orleans. The idea that people on opposite ends of the world could communicate in real time (and receive audio and video!) would have been unheard of even 200 years ago.

Likewise, there are things that would be considered impossible today that may well be possible in the next few centuries. So, while those things were impossible and inconceivable in the Rambam's world, they aren't now. It's just a matter of the times you live in.

Tammy

↑ Motek ↓

Wed, Nov 07 2007, 5:47 pm

TammyTammy wrote:

Are you trying to tell us that the Rebbe zt"l knew more about physics in the one or two years that he may have studied it than people who have advanced university degrees and spent their entire lives in the field?

Are you suggesting that the Rebbe wrote about things he was not qualified to comment on?

The Rebbe kept up with the sciences. Prof. H. Branover writes in his book "Return" (Feldheim):

Quote:

"The Rebbe displays deep respect for specialists in all fields. However, I know of dozens of cases - told to me by participants in the events - where the Rebbe expressed an opinion or gave advice contrary to that of specialists in politics, medicine, pedagogy or other fields, and in the end he was always proved to be right and the others wrong."

Quote:

"If anyone were to ever eavesdrop on my yechidos, he would be hard put to believe that from the office of the Rebbe, the tzaddik, the personification of Torah, leader of Chassidism, and teacher and advisor to thousands upon thousands of Jews, emanate expressions like "advantages of direct contact heat transfer in liquids ..," "suppression of turbulence in a magnetic field ...," "difficulties of separating phases while preserving the kinetic energy of liquid ...," the budget for buying a new thermoanemometric system ...," "the composition of the organizing committee of the Conference of Magnetohydrodynamics ..." And all this in Yiddish with the scientific terms partly in English, partly in Russian.

Quote:

"Even I myself sometimes forget that I am not participating in an actual university consultation ...

Quote:

"Everyone is always amazed at how expert the Rebbe is in any specialized field ...

I will add that although the Rebbe kept up with disparate fields, his grasp was superhuman and his instructions (like telling people how to handle medical conditions when he hadn't seen the patient) were oftentimes derived from supernatural knowledge.

Quote:

Professor Branover frequently briefs the Rebbe on his various research projects. In one report, he presented a very sophisticated study built upon extensive calculations that had been prepared by computer. As he reviewed the details, the Rebbe remarked: "Two numbers here are inconsistent."

Professor Branover was stunned. "But all the calculations were done by computer and the program used is based on our most advanced theory."

The Rebbe smiled. "With all due respect to the experts, you will see that there is an error."

In the preparation of the calculations, an incongruity indeed had appeared. It took Professor Branover's research team six months to locate it.

↑ TammyTammy ↓

Wed, Nov 07 2007, 5:50 pm

OK, that's fine. You can believe that if you wish. I, however, will remain a bit more skeptical.

Tammy

↑ Motek ↓

Wed, Nov 07 2007, 6:19 pm

"that" being?

↑ TammyTammy ↓

Wed, Nov 07 2007, 6:22 pm

Motek wrote:

"that" being?

That the Rebbe ZT"L was possessed of superhuman intelligence.

I'll admit that he was a tzaddik, and a wonderful person and a role model. But I have to draw the line at superhuman abilities. You can believe it if you so wish, but I am under no requirement to do so.

Tammy

↑ Motek ↓

Wed, Nov 07 2007, 6:34 pm

I'd love to hear an alternate explanation to the thousands of instances in which the Rebbe instructed someone or said something or did something that human beings don't or can't normally do.

I also wonder whether you believe in the existence of ruach ha'kodesh.

↑ amother ↓

Wed, Nov 07 2007, 6:37 pm

Motek wrote:

I'd love to hear an alternate explanation to the thousands of instances in which the Rebbe instructed someone or said something or did something that human beings don't or can't normally do.

Yeah, but could he do this?

http://www.imamother.com/forum.....ight=

(j/k, don't yell at me)

↑ TammyTammy ↓

Wed, Nov 07 2007, 6:37 pm

Motek wrote:

I'd love to hear an alternate explanation to the thousands of instances in which the Rebbe instructed someone or said something or did something that human beings don't or can't normally do.

I don't have to prove anything. You have to prove that they happened/

Quote:

I also wonder whether you believe in the existence of ruach ha'kodesh.

Irrelevant question.

It's irrelevant because I can believe in Ruach HaKodesh and still assert that the Rebbe ZT"L did not have it... much like many other tzadikkim. The existence of Ruach HaKodesh is a question that is independent of whether or not the Rebbe ZT"L had it.

I believe in Rucah HaKodesh. I'm not prepared to believe that the Rebbe ZT"L (or anyone else in this generation) has it. Nor am I required to do so.

Tammy

↑ Motek ↓

Wed, Nov 07 2007, 6:41 pm

TammyTammy wrote:

I don't have to prove anything. You have to prove that they happened

What would you accept as proof? If someone told you their personal miracle story, would you believe it?

Quote:

I'm not prepared to believe that the Rebbe ZT"L (or anyone else in this generation) has it.

Why not? And on what basis would you decide whether or not a tzaddik has it?

Again, I'd love to hear an alternate explanation to the thousands of instances in which the Rebbe instructed someone or said something or did something that human beings don't or can't normally do.

↑ TammyTammy ↓

Wed, Nov 07 2007, 6:45 pm

Motek wrote:

TammyTammy wrote:

I don't have to prove anything. You have to prove that they happened

What would you accept as proof? If someone told you their personal miracle story, would you believe it?

Possibly. It would depend on a number of factors -- the person's believability, whether or not there are other possible explanations, the evidence presented, etc. I can't give you a "one size fits all" rule. And even if I, personally, can't come up with an alternate explanation, that doesn't mean that there isn't one.

Quote:

I'm not prepared to believe that the Rebbe ZT"L (or anyone else in this generation) has it.

Why not? And on what basis would you decide whether or not a tzaddik has it?

And on what basis do you decide whether or not a tzaddik has?

Quote:

Again, I'd love to hear an alternate explanation to the thousands of instances in which the Rebbe instructed someone or said something or did something that human beings don't or can't normally do.

Again, you're asserting that there are these "thousands of cases" and yet you haven't even brought one.

Tammy

↑ TammyTammy ↓

Wed, Nov 07 2007, 6:46 pm

BTW, I thought this thread was about science and Torah. When did it become about the Rebbe ZT"L and Ruach HaKodesh?

Tammy

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