What to say to a drunk at a kiddish?

↑ ally

Tue, Dec 11 2018, 12:05 pm

amother wrote:

I agree the community is responsible to send him to his family. But the wife won't have him drunk in her parents' house. You can't leave him in the street. I think the men should escort him there and leave him on the porch.

I don't allow underage drinking, and I don't drink myself. Few of my friends drink. No one gets Purim drunk but a few isolated lushes. The drinking is primarily limited to Shabbos day on the mens side. I have zero control what goes on there.

Why can’t you leave him in the street? It’s better than bringing him in and enabling his behavior.

WhatFor

Tue, Dec 11 2018, 12:10 pm

amother wrote:

This man has a disease called alcoholism and he needs treatment. Alcohol may be okay for you and your guests but for him it is poison. He needs an intervention or he needs to hit rock bottom so he realizes how bad it is and gets help.

What you and DH are doing is called enabling. It sounds like his wife is tired of enabling and he knows he can't go to her so he's looking for other enablers. DH seems more happy to enable than you do at the moment, but as far as he's concerned, it's all the same. You're feeding the disease its poison so that this man doesn't hit rock bottom and continues to get poison to feed the disease.

Leaving him in the street might make him wake up to the fact that he needs help. It may also be possible for people in the community who care about him to try to get him to AA before he gets to that point. It's actually really sad. And he's not a "bum", as someone called him, he's a man with a terrible disease who needs help.

amother

↑ Dodgerblue ↓

Tue, Dec 11 2018, 12:59 pm

amother wrote:

So the problem is that you and dh are not on the same page, and he is unwilling to set boundaries. This is a shlom bayit issue more than a drunkard issue.

DH and I are on the same page as he agreed that next time the sil drunk makes a scene, he will ask him to leave. He won't be welcome back in. I think that is a fair compromise.

DH thinks the wife's pressure is making the sil drunk drink less. My opinion is that the guy is a lush and will mess up sooner or later. Hopefully, it won't be in my home.

The truth is I don't like him for his past actions. I feel uncomfortable when he is around even if he isn't Purim drunk. Essentially, he has one more chance.

amother

Smokey ↓

Tue, Dec 11 2018, 1:16 pm

amother wrote:

Because he might get frostbite or worse.

Not your problem.

His wife has told him that he has a choice -- he can get help with his drinking and be home enjoying Shabbat with his family; or he can drink and be alone on the streets.

You're undermining that by inviting him into your home (you may say that he's not invited, but its clear that he's welcome, so he views it as an invitation) to get drunk and behave however he wants.

He'll be fine. If you're really worried, and the temperature is well below freezing, give him a pair of gloves and a hat, and a mug of hot coffee.

thunderstorm

Tue, Dec 11 2018, 1:28 pm

amother wrote:

Agree. And if he is too cold he can always walk back to shul and stay there to keep warm.

amother

↑ Dodgerblue ↓

Tue, Dec 11 2018, 1:41 pm

amother wrote:

I don't know the wife told him all that. All I know is she won't let him in her home if he is drunk.

↑ Miri7 ↓

Tue, Dec 11 2018, 3:31 pm

amother wrote:

Well, I'm glad you have a plan, but I must say that if there is a person who makes me personally uncomfortable in my own home, I would expect DH to explain to that person that they are no longer welcome to our house. Full stop. I don't see why this guy is getting another chance.

At any rate, I suppose it doesn't matter too much because it sounds like he will blow his only chance pretty quickly.

I, too, wonder what is going on in your community that there is so much drunkenness. We have alcohol freely available at shul and I don't recall every seeing anyone drunk (outside of Purim). People have a small l'chaim and that's it. If it's such a problem, I think it would be worthwhile to consider stopping serving alcohol for a while to re-set your community norms. I would talk with the Rav about this.

amother

↑ Dodgerblue ↓

Tue, Dec 11 2018, 5:35 pm

Miri7 wrote:

You think I have so much control that I can reset community norms by stopping serving alcohol? That's ridiculous. I know you aren't the only one who made that suggestion, but it shows a lack of understanding of the community norms. There are a dozen nearby shuls where I live, and they all serve alcohol.

Besides, I have no wish to reset community norms. I have no wish to serve sweet kiddish wine either. I have no wish to supply hats and gloves to drunks. Except for Shabbos kiddish, there isn't any alcohol served in my house. It isn't a free for all frat party either with underaged drinkers as some suggested. There are women and children present. And the women and children are all sober. A vast amount of food gets consumed along with some alcohol on the men's side.

One drunken visitor to my house who is not allowed in his house is not going to cause us to alter our lifestyle. I agree he will blow his chance soon.

amother

↑ Smokey ↓

Tue, Dec 11 2018, 5:43 pm

amother wrote:

If you continue to do what you have always done, you can reasonably anticipate to have the same results continue.

If you have no desire to change anything, then you can expect to have drunks show up at your house to drink your booze until 120.

You don't want to tell him that he cannot come to your home, because its an "open" kiddush. You don't want to not serve hard liquor, because everyone serves hard liquor. You don't want to send him away because he'll get frostbite. You don't want to give him clothing to avoid frostbite.

So absent some miracle, you're going to let him keep coming to your home, and getting wasted. And if a miracle occurs with him, it will just be the next drunkard.

What do others in your community do?

↑ Miri7

Tue, Dec 11 2018, 6:03 pm

amother wrote:

Just for the record, my suggestion was to stop serving alcohol at shul for a bit. I was just surprised that there are people getting drunk at shul. That was pretty shocking to me. I know my Rav would crack down on that pretty quickly if it happened in our shul.

Wishing you many pleasant kiddushes in your home.

amother

Lawngreen ↓

Tue, Dec 11 2018, 6:21 pm

amother wrote:

What DO you want to do? I get the impression that you don't want to do anything on your end. You just want the wife to remove the boundaries she instituted to protect herself and her family, to eliminate a problem that any open kiddush with free flowing alcohol needs to address.

amother

↑ Dodgerblue ↓

Tue, Dec 11 2018, 6:30 pm

amother wrote:

Smokey,

The kiddishes where he shows up uninvited are not open kiddishes. They are by invitation as I said. By open kiddish, I mean announcements are put up in the shuls and texts are sent out to all. When I say I want an open house, I mean I want friends and neighbors to feel welcome.

This guy will inevitably mess up. I will have him escorted back to his in-laws house. I really should have thrown him out the first time he annoyed me when the weather was nicer.

The others in my community seem to tolerate him better than I do.

amother

↑ Dodgerblue ↓

Tue, Dec 11 2018, 6:37 pm

amother wrote:

Again, the kiddish in MY house is NOT an open kiddish. I invited the guests by contacting the wives and inviting the families. A few assorted guys came along when they saw the DH leaving leaving the shul with our guests.

DH and I agreed how to handle this going forward. The drunk's wife and I don't have equal responsibilities here. While neither of us want him in our homes, she is the one married to him which is why I am going to have him deposited at her door. I can't leave him outside in this weather and hope he finds his way to the shul. He is her problem not mine.

amother

↑ Dodgerblue ↓

Tue, Dec 11 2018, 6:40 pm

amother wrote:

Glad you and DH worked it out.

Still a shame that he can't be forewarned and you can be relaxed about it and avoid a scene in the moment. Or have your kids exposed to something you don't want or for you to feel stressed.

Prevention is worth a pound of cure.

hatzlocha

I don't have a way to warn him. LOL - I don't even know his name. He is referred to as blank's son in law.

amother

↑ Lawngreen ↓

Tue, Dec 11 2018, 8:08 pm

amother wrote:

I think this is very wrong. You're job is to send him away from your home, not to stick the situation back to the wife and family. They're entitled to choose the best way to protect themselves and you don't really have the right to interfere with that.

Yes, he is their problem and they've decided how to handle it. They've decided the best way to protect themselves is to make sure he stays away when drunk. You have no right to mess with that.

You can do whatever it takes to keep him away from your home. You can deposit him on the street, ignore him, slam the door in his face, walk him to back to shul, etc. What I don't understand why you'd want to make the situation even more difficult for the wife, especially when there are many other ways to handle this without doing so.

To me this sounds like you're holding the wife responsible for messing with your weekly kiddush, and you just want to stick it back to her.

amother

↑ Dodgerblue ↓

Tue, Dec 11 2018, 10:01 pm

amother wrote:

He is her problem not mine. I would feel terrible if he got hit by a car stumbling home or passed out in the freezing weather. As long as he is inebriated then he needs a competent person to see to his safety.

Why can't his wife be the one to refuse him entry or slam the door in his face rather than me? Let her be responsible if anything happens to him. I don't want that guilt.

I have every right to see that he is in a safe destination. As much as he annoys me, we don't dump people in the street.