Science vs Torah. And the winner is....

↑ TammyTammy ↓

Mon, Sep 10 2007, 2:53 pm

hadasa wrote:

TammyTammy wrote:

Nonetheless, despite that, that doesn't really change anything. Whether the world is 5768 years old or longer is independent of my personal feelings or beliefs on the matter.

Tammy

True, and I believe the world really is 5768 years old, notwithstanding scientists' claims to the contrary.

The difference being, of course, that your belief is *in contradiction* to scientific evidence that is easily available and verifiable.

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I'm still interested in hearing your personal feelings and beliefs, though.

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If Hayom Haras Olam would mean the Big Bang - you mean that would have happened on Rosh Hashanah billions of years ago? According to your understanding, that the earth orbits around the sun - was that 365 days from the first Big Bang? Because otherwise, the date of Rosh hashanah is meaningless.

Time certainly can and does exist even if the earth, sun and moon don't exist. If the solar system were to disappear tomorrow, the rest of the universe would continue on its merry way, time passing as normal.

Now, do I *know* that the BB happened on RH billions of years ago? Of course not. But it's an opinion that I have to explain what "hayom haras olam" means when I say it on RH. (It is interesting to note, of course, that nowhere on RH do you have to acknowledge *which* year it is -- only that today is the "birthday" of the world.)

If that doesn't work for you, perhaps you could say that RH is the "day" that the earth began coalescing into a planet. Or perhaps it's the day that Adam was created (which, even traditionally, is the accepted meaning -- RH isn't the anniversary of the first day of creation, but rather of the sixth).

Tammy

↑ hadasa ↓

Mon, Sep 10 2007, 3:11 pm

So a year is 24 hours x 365 whether or not there's a sun or moon? I find it hard to understand the significance of the exact date, in that case. What's the point of calling Rosh Hashanah the birthday of the world, if it's just a calculation of billions of times 365 at a time when there was no day, night or years as we know them?

Now about Rosh Hashanah being the creation of Adam - that is the traditional view, and I believe accepted even by those who believe in the "six periods, not 24 hour days" philosophy. And according to their view, it would be possible that the years are counted from then. But you claim that civilization, I.e. man exists from before then.

As for the "scientific evidence" - I'm no scientist, but since I believe in Torah, I ( and, not incidently, many Frum scientists) believe it is inaccurate, for the reasons I mentioned above.

↑ Sue DaNym ↓

Tue, Sep 11 2007, 11:32 pm

TammyTammy wrote:

Motek wrote:

Kmelion wrote:

When there are 2,3, 4, 10 different opinions on what a passage means, never mind their scientific theories, how can they all be true?

Regarding statements in the Talmud, Chazal say, "eilu v'eilu divrei Elokim chayim" - these and these are the words of the living G-d. Do you accept this statement of Chazal?

That statement has nothing to do with the literal factuality of what Rashi stated. After all, there are plenty of things that we accept as "divrei Elokim Chaim" even though they aren't literally and factually true.

In plenty of cases where one Midrash says A happened and another Midrash says B happened and the two are mutually exclusive, we still say "Eilu V'Eilu," but they can't both be factually and literally correct. A good example is Iyov. According to some opinions he was an advisor to Pharoah in Egypt. According to others, he never existed. Well, either Iyov existed or he didn't. You can have it both ways. We still say "eilu v'eilu" on both opinions... but they're still not *both* factually true; and no amount of wishing otherwise will make it so.

Tammy

wrong, as usual. when we say aylu v'aylu, we do believe that they are true. how could hashem tell us something that isn't true. emes is the seal of hakadosh baruch hu. everything in the torah is true. if it seems that there is a contradiction, then its only bcuz you cant understand the torah, not bcuz its not true.

↑ Sue DaNym ↓

Tue, Sep 11 2007, 11:34 pm

TammyTammy wrote:

hadasa wrote:

TammyTammy wrote:

[
Well, they obviously didn't start from year 1, as there was no Jewish people then. But just because we claim to have to have an unbroken count doesn't, in fact, make it so.

Tammy

So what significance (if any) do you see in the number 5768? In the words "Hayom haras olam" on Rosh Hashanah?

Fair question, and, to be perfectly honest, I'm not certain that I have an answer for you. I suppose one can posit that Creation (which can be defined as the Big Bang) happened on RH (especially when you consider that time began at that point as well). As for the number 5768... I'll be perfectly frank and tell you that I don't know.

Nonetheless, despite that, that doesn't really change anything. Whether the world is 5768 years old or longer is independent of my personal feelings or beliefs on the matter.

Tammy

in other words, you dont have a clue but your going to trash the torah anyway.

↑ BeershevaBubby ↓

Wed, Sep 12 2007, 12:11 am

Sue DaNym wrote:

First of all, you're heading towards being disrespectful of a poster again.

And second, when one Midrash says A, and another Midrash on the same Pasuk contradicts it and says B, it's not ME whose is interpreting the Torah, it's Rashi, Rambam, Ramban, etc. You still haven't given an answer as to how two, three, four Midrashim can have different interpretations on the same Pasuk... sometimes even the same word and still all be true (we're not doubting it's holy).

↑ Sue DaNym ↓

Wed, Sep 12 2007, 12:14 am

Kmelion wrote:

Sue DaNym wrote:

I meant the generic you, but I can understand how it could be read the way you read it. ill be more careful.

they are both true. its just that you (or me, or whoever) isnt understanding the midrashim (or the rashi or the rambam) correctly. but ultimately all opinions are true because they are divrei elokim chayim

↑ TammyTammy ↓

Sun, Sep 16 2007, 12:10 pm

Sue DaNym wrote:

TammyTammy wrote:

Motek wrote:

Kmelion wrote:

When there are 2,3, 4, 10 different opinions on what a passage means, never mind their scientific theories, how can they all be true?

Regarding statements in the Talmud, Chazal say, "eilu v'eilu divrei Elokim chayim" - these and these are the words of the living G-d. Do you accept this statement of Chazal?

OK, then, can *you* explain to me how it is possible for Iyov to both have never existed and yet been an adivsor to Pharoah? The two are mutually exclusive and cannot both be literally true. You can yell "eilu v'eilu..." all you like, but it doesn't change the fact that they can't both be literally true.

Tammy

↑ Sue DaNym ↓

Wed, Sep 19 2007, 11:32 am

TammyTammy wrote:

Sue DaNym wrote:

TammyTammy wrote:

Motek wrote:

Kmelion wrote:

When there are 2,3, 4, 10 different opinions on what a passage means, never mind their scientific theories, how can they all be true?

Regarding statements in the Talmud, Chazal say, "eilu v'eilu divrei Elokim chayim" - these and these are the words of the living G-d. Do you accept this statement of Chazal?

there u go again denying the torah. we say aylu vaylu because they are both true. did you listen to rabbi resimans shir as someone suggested? what did he say?

↑ TammyTammy ↓

Wed, Sep 19 2007, 4:07 pm

Sue DaNym wrote:

Motek wrote:

Sue DaNym wrote:

its in the minchas hachinuch.

When you can tell precisely where in that sefer it is, it's a source that can be verified. Until then, it's useless.

my dh found it!!! finally!!!

its in mitzvah 169 metzorah and again repeated in 545 shiluach hakan. this proves that no animal ever goes extinct. so I am sure because the torah says so that there are still dodos around. dinosaurs on the other hand are all just made up anyway so they didnt go extinct. you have to exist first in order to go extinct.

I don't mean to show any disrespect to the author of the Minchas HaChinuch, but so what? Just because he says that an animal doesn't go extinct (BTW, I haven't checked the source... I'm taking your word that it says what you actually say it says) that doesn't mean it's necessarily true. The author of the Minchas HaChinuch was not infallible and can certainly make mistakes.

The fact is that dodos only existed on one small island in the Indian Ocean and have not been seen there for the last several hundred years. No dodo has ever been spotted anyplace else on earth in the last several thousand years. And now, they no longer exist in the only place that they had been known to exist. That tells you that they are extinct.

To give you an analogy to this -- Earth is the only place in the universe that humans have ever existed (well, there were twelve who walked on the moon, but [a] that was only very temporary and [b] you don't believe it happened anyway). Now, pretend that you are an alien observing the planet earth and you see that all the humans on Earth died out. What would you conclude? Would you conclude that humans became extinct, or would conclude that humans must exist somewhere else, like Jupiter*, even though they've never been known to exist there before?

Most logical, thinking people would conclude that the humans went extinct. The same applies to the dodo. It just as equally applies to the passenger pigeon, (by the way, if you want to know about how rapidly an extremely numerous species can be driven into extinction, read about the passenger pigeon.) woolly mammoth, saber tooth tiger and other such species.

The author of the Minchas HaChinuch was not a naturalist or a zoologist. He probably did not have access to nearly as much biological data about the species of the world that we have today. Stating that he was simply mistaken about this is not heresy and it's not disrespectful -- no more disrespectful than it is to say that I am wrong about advanced nuclear physiscs.

Tammy

* Yes, I know that Jupiter is a huge radioactive gas giant and can't support life... it's just an example.

↑ Motek ↓

Sun, Sep 23 2007, 5:20 pm

Rather than knock the Minchas Chinuch, using the approach that he was wrong, mistaken, speaking about matters that he knew nothing about Rolling Eyes

I'll take a different tack.

He says that a "min" cannot go extinct. So? Who says the dodo bird is a min?

If you look in the list of forbidden birds in the Torah, it says again and again, "and its min." There are many birds (and animals) within a min. If one type of eagle, for example, goes extinct, that doesn't mean the entire min is extinct.

Same for dinosaurs. Let's say there were dinosaurs and those huge creatures are extinct. So? Lizards, which look like miniature dinosaurs might be the same min.

↑ Sue DaNym ↓

Wed, Sep 26 2007, 2:38 pm

TammyTammy wrote:

how silly is that? you say that you arent going to disrespect the minchas hachinuch and in the very next sentence you do just that! the minchas hachinuch is a part of the torah. if you want to denythat the torah is right then just come out and say so. but dont pretend to be true to the torah when you dont believe in it.
the minchas hachinuch says that animals dont go extinct. period. its pretty black and wite.

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The fact is that dodos only existed on one small island in the Indian Ocean and have not been seen there for the last several hundred years. No dodo has ever been spotted anyplace else on earth in the last several thousand years. And now, they no longer exist in the only place that they had been known to exist. That tells you that they are extinct.

To give you an analogy to this -- Earth is the only place in the universe that humans have ever existed (well, there were twelve who walked on the moon, but [a] that was only very temporary and [b] you don't believe it happened anyway). Now, pretend that you are an alien observing the planet earth and you see that all the humans on Earth died out. What would you conclude? Would you conclude that humans became extinct, or would conclude that humans must exist somewhere else, like Jupiter*, even though they've never been known to exist there before?

Most logical, thinking people would conclude that the humans went extinct. The same applies to the dodo. It just as equally applies to the passenger pigeon, (by the way, if you want to know about how rapidly an extremely numerous species can be driven into extinction, read about the passenger pigeon.) woolly mammoth, saber tooth tiger and other such species.

you assume that because they were only seen on one small island that thats the only place theyve ever been. did you follow all the dodos after the mabul to see where they went? maybe some ended up elsewhere. you dont know and your only guessing.

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The author of the Minchas HaChinuch was not a naturalist or a zoologist.

no, he wouldnt stoop to such lowness. he was a tzaddik, a talmud chacham and an adam gadol. he wouldnt lower himself to something so unholy as secular studies.

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He probably did not have access to nearly as much biological data about the species of the world that we have today.

he had access to the torah. hafoch bah vhafoch bah dkula bah all the data he would need is in the torah. he had more data about animals and nature than you or any "scientist" ever will bcuz he had the torah.

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Stating that he was simply mistaken about this is not heresy and it's not disrespectful -- no more disrespectful than it is to say that I am wrong about advanced nuclear physiscs.

the diff is that you dont know the torah either. the minchas hachinuch did.