"If it saves one life"

↑ Rubber Ducky ↓

Fri, Feb 16 2018, 1:09 pm

marina wrote:

The most interesting question to me is why many conservatives who actually agree on the need for better enforcement or more legislation don't work together with liberals to accomplish their goals.

Instead, oddly, some conservatives pretend they oppose all gun control and decry the wicked lefties who are trying to take away their guns. When push comes to shove though, they're always like WELLLLL ACTUALLY OF COURSE THERE SHOULD BE REASONABLE RULES BLAH BLAH BLAH. Duh, why are you wasting my time arguing about Chicago's crime statistics when we could be working together to ensure that background checks are more thorough and existing loopholes are closed?

This kid, who was clearly "off," might have gotten a gun anyway. But yes, existing laws like background checks need to be enforced and there needs to be much better coordination between agencies.

↑ SixOfWands ↓

Fri, Feb 16 2018, 1:36 pm

Rubber Ducky wrote:

But maybe you should be. My son does 3D printing. He's made prototypes for products, a prosthetic hand, and the Mishkan (link: https://baltimorejewishlife.co.....71249 ) No, he doesn't print weapons. It's a rapidly evolving technology and the cost of the printers is coming down.

Did you read the article about the limitations of 3d printing, and the costs of using a 3d printer to create a gun.

17 people were murdered. And your answer is oh well, my son can make the mishkan with a 3d printer, so we don't need gun control.

According to Fox News, there have been 25 school shootings in the U.S. since the Columbine massacre in 1999 and 54 mass shootings since the turn of the century. Precisely ZERO have involved a 3D printed gun.

Are you willing to accept his reality? Are you willing to accept that the next school may be your kids or grandkids, that they may be the ones hiding under desks, or laying under the body of their dead friend? Or do you want solutions?

↑ southernbubby ↓

Fri, Feb 16 2018, 1:51 pm

marina wrote:

There is harmful rhetoric on both sides and it has become lame of the right to offer to pray and of the left to shout for more restrictive gun laws while the dead are still warm (as opposed to not making it a political issue but a safety issue). While we need both prayers and gun ownership restrictions, those who are busy pressuring their elected officials to stick to an extreme stance are the ones who have to find a middle and reach across the cultural divide because as long as we cling to one extreme or the other, we lose the ability to find a sensible path.

The loudest shouts are the ones who get heard and until the people unite for safety, they will not outshout the voices of the NRA. Those who survived such attacks, as well as family members of those killed or severely injured, have the ability to inspire their fellow Americans to unite by insisting on ending sales of assault rifles to civilians and in installing better alarms in schools as well as more spending on mental health.

↑ 33055 ↓

Fri, Feb 16 2018, 2:01 pm

southernbubby wrote:

The sad fact is there is too much garbage protesting that legit protestors inspire no one but those already on the same page. No idea what purpose most of last year's protests accomplished except to tune out the masses.

The loud shouts are not getting heard but getting ignored. The over the top hysteria hurts those with real messages.

↑ Fox ↓

Fri, Feb 16 2018, 2:28 pm

marina wrote:

ITA, 100 percent!

I think the answer to your question is threefold.

First, it's a problem of polarization. I'm guessing that the majority of liberals would be okay with leaving the 2nd Amendment in place. I'm also pretty sure that the majority of conservatives are perfectly fine with most of the background checks and other commonsense restrictions that are proposed.

But like virtually every other public debate, the voices that get the airtime and attention are the most extreme voices on each side. So you get an unarguably wacky leftie shrieking that all gun owners are murderers, and you get a creepy conservative nutjob who lives off the grid screaming back that he needs his guns to shoot varmints.

That makes for good television, but the only possible positive outcome is if everyone gets fed up and shoots both the wacky leftie and the conservative nutjob. And that would kind of defeat the purpose of reducing gun violence.

Second, both liberals and conservatives back in the 70s and 80s made a mistake of allowing particular stances on gun control to be associated with them politically. That was a huge mistake which was aided and abetted by both gun control advocates and the NRA/gun manufacturers' lobby. We don't consider drivers' licenses and car registrations to represent liberal or conservative points of view, and there's no reason guns should be any different. But if we identify in a general sense as liberals or conservatives, we find ourselves carrying baggage on this issue that really shouldn't be there.

Third, most regrettably, gun violence is typically discussed in the aftermath of a mass shooting, when emotions run high. The people who are the most emotionally affected are not necessarily the best people to implement actual solutions. In fact, I find that a lot of people who get very upset about tragic or disturbing events -- and this is not limited to gun violence -- lose interest when you start talking about the nuts and bolts of solving the problem. Their eyes glaze over pretty quick.

In the other thread I mentioned Gabby Giffords' organization, Americans for Responsible Solutions. Not a lot of drama or demands for immediate action. Lots of interaction with people in the military, law enforcement, and gun community. Specific, modest goals.

I think -- or maybe just hope -- that these are the kinds of voices that will prevail. It's a difficult fight, though, to get everyone's attention off the wacky lefty and the conservative nutjob.

↑ southernbubby ↓

Fri, Feb 16 2018, 2:31 pm

Squishy wrote:

Those victims can go to the Supreme Court and sue for better gun laws and they can start with state courts. Some states, such as CT, already have laws limiting the ownership of assault rifles. They can also raise money to lobby against the NRA. People can either remain as victims or they can organize and fight the powers that be.

I may not take any action other than to talk on imamother about guns but if my friend was recovering from a GSW and wanted to involve me in a grassroots organization, I would probably join the fray.

http://www.ct.gov/despp/cwp/vi.....94616

Optimystic

Fri, Feb 16 2018, 2:47 pm

Jeanette wrote:

After a terrorist attack, the justification for draconian crackdowns on muslims/immigrants is, "If it can save even one life." In other words, we should look away if some people's rights and freedoms are trampled as it's a worthwhile trade off for saving lives.

I wonder why the same argument does not apply to the gun control debate. Is it worth it to give up some freedom to own certain types of guns under certain circumstances if it can save "even one life"?

The justification is wrong in both debates, and I always appreciate when double standards are highlighted.

We could save a lot of lives with a nationwide 10 mph speed limit, probably many more than are lost to terrorists foreign or domestic. I don't consider that justification for instituting a 10 mph speed limit.

↑ 33055 ↓

Fri, Feb 16 2018, 2:53 pm

southernbubby wrote:

The Daily Mail is the most popular online newspaper. They lead off with 24 articles out of around 30 about the shooting including protests by family, candlelight vigils, and celebrity theatrics from Jimmy Kimmel. None of the articles made the top 18 out of 18 articles read.

Raising money against the NRA might work, but people have to care to give their money.

People are getting bombarded with the news. They cared when the Sandy Hook happened 2012. Now there have been over 400 shootings. There are an average of 5 a month.

https://www.nytimes.com/intera......html

↑ southernbubby ↓

Fri, Feb 16 2018, 2:59 pm

Squishy wrote:

It doesn't take people reading the news because we read, react on social media, and then move on. It takes people who do more than organize vigils. It means getting loads of people to bombard their local elected officials and get the courts involved. It happens when a group of people invite their friends, fellow congregants, school groups, etc; otherwise, it just remains useless talk.

↑ WhatFor ↓

Fri, Feb 16 2018, 3:03 pm

southernbubby wrote:

Unfortunately going forward there will always be warm bodies until there is actual gun reform. Every moment spent waiting is more lives lost.

FWIW, I think most ppl actually agree on a lot of what needs to be done and share common middle ground. The notion that ppl take extreme sides is perpetuated by those who make the most money off of ensuring that no reform will ever be passed.

↑ 33055 ↓

Fri, Feb 16 2018, 3:06 pm

southernbubby wrote:

I agree. But if the masses don't even care to read about it, then the actions won't happen.

I read about news I care about. I skip the news that is not of interest to me as do most people.

The constant school shootings and the hysterical over the top protests created a blindness.

↑ southernbubby ↓

Fri, Feb 16 2018, 3:28 pm

Squishy wrote:

I admit that to me, this one is a bit closer to home than church shootings, a shooting at an outdoor concert, or a nightclub. Some of those killed are Jews. Maybe that shouldn't make them more important to me but it is sort of like asking someone in my neighborhood to care that the library in a small town in Mississippi needs new books.

Before, they were shooting people who I had no real bond or connection to but seeing a fellow Jewish mother crying out to Trump makes it a more personal issue. Maybe more Jewish organizations will step up to the plate because of the Jewish deaths and maybe Jews will go knocking on doors, asking for activism because otherwise, we all just sit here and say that it could never happen here.

↑ 33055 ↓

Fri, Feb 16 2018, 4:00 pm

southernbubby wrote:

Everytime there is a school shooting, I say BH my kids are in private school. There is so much violence locally and regionally in public schools that hits closer to home than Florida. We both have students murdering students by stabbing. Some of these of female.

There is so much energy being wasted on nonsense that could be directed towards bringing attention to how important an issue school violence is.

If the crazy people on the left designated one day to scream to the sky about the school shootings, they would have gotten support. Or if the ladies who wore genitili@ hats would have match marched against school shootings ( in respectable clothes) instead of an election they lost, they might have achieved something positive. If the rioting would have been directed towards saving children's lives, they would have gotten the attention of elected officials instead of just making fools of themselves.