Lakewood offensive sign?

↑ SixOfWands ↓

Thu, Dec 07 2017, 7:42 pm

Fox wrote:

Well, if those are your guidelines, farm subsidies fit the picture of cradle-to-grave assistance far more than any other government program.

Again, farm subsidies are just an example. Yet they are incredibly costly, and it makes no sense whatsoever to get upset about various "welfare" programs while blithely ignoring such expensive government programs.

Which is why I get very suspicious when people claim the moral high ground.

Farm subsidies are indeed a pernicious form of corporate welfare. There were supposed to be limits, so that the funds would only go to small farmers, but that didn't work. But corporate welfare doesn't end there. There are countless tax breaks and tax credits and tax free zones. Which haven't served as "rocket fuel to the economy," but somehow people think that this new round of corporate tax breaks will.

But I digress.

I believe that the amounts spent on food stamps still exceed the amount of farm subsidies, but not the sum of all corporate subsidies. The difference, of course, is that corporate subsidies are not tied to income, but personal welfare payments are.

I don't much like corporate welfare, although I do see a value in small farms, and wouldn't have a problem with some form of subsidies to them.

I don't have a problem with people who need help now and then, and receive welfare. Its the right thing to do. I do have a problem with people who deliberately choose to live their lives in a manner that will require government support. Its that old work ethic drilled into me. But I still wouldn't begrudge them the payments.

I have a bigger problem with Jews deserve it more because .... No. Just no.

↑ jkl ↓

Thu, Dec 07 2017, 7:46 pm

Fox wrote:

I don't get why you are so focused on the farm benefits. The farming benefits was established to help ALL OF US - you, me and everyone else. It wasn't established because the farmers wanted to keep their farms or wanted to be farmers for life. The government doesn't generally interfere if industries get phased out or priced out. They only established this so that the most basic ingredients of all our foods is readily and cheaply available for society to survive.

I would think that sustaining our food supply is a priority and does pull weight over everything else, no matter the cost! It makes PERFECT sense to get upset about people milking welfare programs for personal benefits, while being okay with billions and trillions of dollars being spent on 323 million peoples' most basic need.

↑ jkl ↓

Thu, Dec 07 2017, 7:48 pm

flowerpower wrote:

Most that take benefits work hard. Really hard. They don't go to protests near wall street on a work day or in front of Trump Tower. They work hard to raise a family. They don't do drugs or buy illegal guns in the black market during the day. They have a lot more expenses than the average Joe and his family of 2 kids. They have to make shabbos every week, pay tuitions, make bar mitzvahs, buy kosher food, make 8 day yomim tovim that cost a lot..... many would not make it without the help.

True - but why is it society's responsibility to help with our bar mitzvahs, supply us with kosher food, and so on?

benny ↓

Thu, Dec 07 2017, 7:49 pm

Why should contributing to society trump Torah values? Our values aren’t the same as most of the world, and I don’t get why so many on here are taking the other side. Torah ideals are learning lots of Torah which includes many learning in kollel, and having larger families. (Among lots of other things). Initially the idea of yissachar/zevulun relationship was set up. That would be ideal, but doesn’t work for many. So ppl rely on available government help which they are eligible for. I understand not everyone likes this idea but who says it’s right to instead choose not to learn in kollel in order to not take available government help?

↑ SixOfWands

Thu, Dec 07 2017, 7:50 pm

flowerpower wrote:

Most welfare recipients don't do drugs or buy illegal guns or any of those other things. People who receive SNAP, for example, are generally the working poor. Over half of those families that receive SNAP and have children actually have at least one working adult. (Unless disabled, those without kids MUST work.)

Seven states test welfare recipients for drugs (Arizona, Kansas, Mississippi, Missouri, Oklahoma, Tennessee, and Utah). The statistics show that applicants actually test positive at a lower rate than the drug use of the general population. The national drug use rate is 9.4 percent. In these states, however, the rate of positive drug tests to total welfare applicants ranges from 0.002 percent to 8.3 percent, but all except one have a rate below 1 percent. Meanwhile, they’ve collectively spent nearly $1 million on the effort.

People fall on hard times. Jews and non-Jews. Let's not demonize the non-frum poor.

(BTW, do you think that the average American taxpayer cares that you need to spend thousands of dollars on a birthday party for your 13 year old, make a massive meal every week, and don't want your kids to attend public school? Sorry. They don't.)

↑ southernbubby ↓

Thu, Dec 07 2017, 7:52 pm

flowerpower wrote:

I am not sure that we are understanding each other. I said that I am glad that frum people get these benefits although I think that we all understand that the government is not obligated to support any particular group's religious obligations.

I also said that those benefits are for those who follow the rules but are still needy. In today's world, some of the only jobs available pay minimum wage. Many former wage earners lost good jobs and were forced to take mediocre jobs. Now I am sure that most people would not want to deny those people the help that they need to survive.

What I do think that our society (meaning the average American taxpayer) resents are those whose lifestyle is lived around planned taking. The taxpayer is not happy that it is due to a religious need any more than he or she is happy that the person is collecting welfare due to dropping out of high school to have a baby, the same way that her mother and grandmother did.

questioner ↓

Thu, Dec 07 2017, 7:54 pm

Fox wrote:

How is taking tax deduction for things like dependents and mortgage interest not receiving a little gift from the government because . . . somebody at some point convinced Congress it was a good idea.

There's a pretty big difference between tax deductions and all other forms of welfare being discussed. By default, the money that I earned should belong to me. Society requires taxes for various purposes, so I have to give some of it away, but the baseline is that it is mine. (Hamotzi mei'chaveiro alav ha'rayah in yeshivish terminology)

OTOH, farm subsidies / food stamps / student aid are all the government giving me money and the burden of proof relies on me to prove that I deserve it.

↑ southernbubby ↓

Thu, Dec 07 2017, 7:58 pm

flowerpower wrote:

Societies? You are paying the same amount of tax regardless of what they do. You know how many people cheat the system? Go to Wic and tell me how many do not have the latest smartphone.

When there is only so much to go around, it would seem to make the most sense to help the neediest first.

When a family becomes homeless, often women and children under 12 are given shelter and children 12 to 16 are put in foster care and children over 16 are often left to their own devices.

There are numerous tent cities in the US due to a homeless population with nowhere to go. These tent cities breed disease due to lack of proper sanitation. All types of homeless live in tent cities from drug addicts and mentally ill, to veterans and people who lost jobs. Homelessness, panhandling, urinating and defecating outside, etc make our cities less safe, healthy and pleasant. Should welfare money first go to situations like that? Can't we figure out how to pay for our own religious needs?

cnc ↓

Thu, Dec 07 2017, 8:00 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

I have been off WIC for a number of years already, as my youngest is too old, and I don't remember the guidelines. I do know that we were making a decent salary, and we were not eligible for any other programs, such as Section 8, food stamps, or Medicaid. I was not poor, I was middle income, but I agree that I was not rich either. I still think that 110,000 for a family of 8 is not POOR, it's middle income.

It may be middle class for the average American but most Jewosh families would have a hard time getting by with that amount pretax after six tuitions, housing expenses and food .

↑ jkl ↓

Thu, Dec 07 2017, 8:04 pm

benny wrote:

Who ever says it trumps Torah values? But it is only us who recognize that fact and it is only us who are concerned about those values.

Torah values does trump everything, but why does society have to lay out the funds for it? Are you perhaps suggesting that leading a life with Torah values is not sustainable? Does the Torah guide us to follow its path on the backs of others, or does it actually advise us how to live a beautiful and self-sustainable life. Perhaps its time to analyze our system and see if it truly follows the Torah values.

Initially the system was set up that only ONE of the TWELVE tribes worked. Then subsequently the Yissachar/Zevulun relationship was set up. Can you imagine what would have happened if ALL of them learned? Don't you think the Torah sent us a message with this setup?

The Torah doesn't encourage us to take money from others, it actually advises us NOT to, even if affects the ability to learn. Nor does the Torah encourage us to demand that our parents support our Kollel lifestyle. (I personally believe that doing so violates Kibbud Av, but thats just my personal opinion.)

Perhaps its time for some deep introspection.

↑ Fox ↓

Thu, Dec 07 2017, 8:12 pm

jkl wrote:

I'm trying to point out the premise for us taking federal funds to subsidize a kollel lifestyle is us taking advantage of society, instead of us contributing to society. And I'm trying to point out why its viewed so negatively outside of our system.

From the viewpoint of outsiders: - We are setting up an unsustainable society, by not providing our kids a proper education, encouraging Torah study for life while having large families, and living large AND expecting society to support us. The whole premise is wrong and that's what their concern is mostly about. They wouldn't be so disparaging if it would be a select few taking advantage of an accepted program, they are concerned because the premise of our setup is based on their backs, without any benefits to anyone but ourselves

You're inverting the cart and the horse, I believe.

There is no tremendous outpouring of anti-Semitism created by kollel families receiving assistance. The vast majority of the country doesn't have a clue about what "kollel" is.

Rather, non-Jews in communities with large frum populations have various reasons for resenting Jews. Unfortunately, some Jews themselves dislike observant or at least Yeshivish Jews. Given those prejudices, they then focus on the "welfare" argument to make their case, despite the fact that kollel families are a miniscule minority of a minority.

If someone is sincere about concern over government resources, then they will be equally concerned by other examples of government's good intentions gone awry. But when their goal is really to argue about kollel, they are remarkably uninterested in such discussions.

If you're part of the Yeshivish community and want to argue about kollel, there's what to be said on both sides. But the thesis that non-Jewish resentment is caused by reliance on government programs by kollel families simply doesn't hold water.

↑ allthingsblue

Thu, Dec 07 2017, 8:18 pm

flowerpower wrote:

So bad to the ORIGINAL post, do you find the sign offensive?

Yes, but not offensive enough to get agudah or politicians involved Rolling Eyes

He's just a loser with lots of time on his hands (to be able to hang around lakewood and apparently monsey just holding this sign).

Nor do I get all worked up when people shout racial slurs on the street (whether in Lakewood or manhattan).

This is life. This is golus. Deal with it.

↑ southernbubby ↓

Thu, Dec 07 2017, 8:26 pm

benny wrote:

Definitely no more than 1/12 of us are learning in kollel.

No but we are missing Zevulun. Yissacher didn't depend on non-Jews for his support. It would be interesting to know if the entire tribe of Yissacher studied or if there were some that worked or who worked part time or for part of their lives. It would also be interesting to know what level of accommodations that Zevulun provided Yissacher. Was it basic sustenance or was it equal to the way that Zevulun lived? I am not sure where to find those answers and Rabbi Google so far hasn't been much help.

Learning Torah an important and worthwhile thing and because Zevulun paid for it, no one else in society could object.

↑ Fox ↓

Thu, Dec 07 2017, 8:28 pm

benny wrote:

Definitely no more than 1/12 of us are learning in kollel.

Precisely. Given the number of kollels in the U.S., including a large enrollment at BMG, I calculated that it's almost impossible for the number of kollel families in the U.S. to exceed 10,000-12,000. If anything, I think that's an overly generous number. If someone has a verified figure or estimate, I'd be interested in knowing it.

If we rely on the Pew Organization's estimate of 4.2 million Jews in the U.S. and their estimate of 10 percent identifying as Orthodox, that means that there are approximately 420,000 Orthodox Jews. That means approximately 35,000 would represent 1/12 of the total. The entire population of Lakewood is only 60,000 -- including women, children, non-Jews, and non-observant Jews.

We've beat the kollel horse to death here on Imamother, and everyone usually ends up agreeing that it's good for some; not good for others; and that kollel life shouldn't be motivated by social pressure.

As for the guy with the sign, the fact that he appeared in Monsey suggests that his unhappiness has little to do with kollel or government benefits.