Lakewood offensive sign?

↑ WhatFor

Thu, Dec 07 2017, 2:19 pm

Fox wrote:

I think most of us fall into this category at one time or another.

After all, how many of us think of government-funded student financial aid as "welfare"? Even government-guaranteed student loans are a form of government assistance.

How is taking tax deduction for things like dependents and mortgage interest not receiving a little gift from the government because . . . somebody at some point convinced Congress it was a good idea.

I've had this conversation with farmers in the past. Many of these are fine, upstanding families who would never, ever take "welfare" -- and who can tell you all the ins and outs of completing farm subsidy forms.

And I haven't even addressed Social Security and Medicare -- both of which result in a net transfer of assets. These are basically Ponzi schemes kept alive by government infusion of cash.

No honest person would condone outright lying or even cynical manipulation in order to receive government benefits. That said, people are remarkably hypocritical when it comes to what they consider "welfare" to include.

I agree that many (if not most) of us have benefited from some form of welfare. As I tend to lean more socialist, my comment wasn't a critique on people who use the programs, but on people who rely on them while espousing the perils of these programs.

jkl ↓

Thu, Dec 07 2017, 2:21 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

So, by your logic, if someone is a student in BMG, they are making a chillul Hashem by receiving welfare, but if he is a student at a regular university it's ok?

For the record, I am not currently receiving ANY kind of welfare, including Jersey Care and WIC.

There is a distinction between a student in a regular university vs a student in BMG. A university student is developing a skill that will eventually lead him to contribute to the economy instead of being a dependent. A student in BMG, while obviously enhancing his spiritual life, is developing a life style where there's a good chance he'll be dependent on society's goodwill for a lifetime.

It's quite understandable that people don't mind helping out the first group and have qualms about helping the latter group.

↑ jkl ↓

Thu, Dec 07 2017, 2:25 pm

WhatFor wrote:

As I've just said above, society generally doesn't mind helping out people who are attempting to establish themselves on their own two feet. So student loans, student grants, etc, are generally not considered to be welfare. But they do have issues with people who are setting themselves up for a lifetime of support. And in all fairness, is it not completely understandable?

↑ Mommyg8 ↓

Thu, Dec 07 2017, 2:58 pm

jkl wrote:

So are you making a distinction between someone who is pursuing a degree in medicine or law, to someone who is pursuing a degree in history, humanities, or philosophy? Do you agree that the former deserve scholarships but the latter don't? I'm not googling it at this moments, but there is a niggling feeling that is telling me the opposite.

You know, it's really funny. Whenever I explain this to non-Jews, they understand this completely. They understand that learning about our religion, and the Talmud, is something that has intrinsic value. It's only Jews that don't get it...

↑ shyshira ↓

Thu, Dec 07 2017, 3:18 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

you weren't discussing what types of education the government should subsidize via scholarship...and people with arts degrees, as useless as they may seem, are still in a better position to get a higher paying job - all things remain equal - than someone without one. But its not guaranteed.

and no one is arguing the lack of intrinsic value to Kollel. And kollel is not learning about our religion, that's what you do in a college class called "Judaism". Kollel is one way of living Judaism.

Did your discussion with non-Jews discuss how Kollel life can sometimes result in families with perpetually low income who then qualify and take governmental support?

↑ jkl ↓

Thu, Dec 07 2017, 3:22 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

The ones who get those degrees,(humanities, philosophies, etc), generally work (get decent paychecks) in that field and sometimes get degrees in other fields too. Even if they don't, they do not set up a lifestyle that's dependent on others. We have two issues to contend with. The first one is that a Talmudical degree is not one that provides a living (for most) and secondly, we have established a lifestyle that is mostly unsustainable without a large income.

Based on the above, I think we can agree on two points here.

1 - That those with degrees in history, humanities and philosophy aren't generally on the welfare roll.

2 - That students with BMG Talmudical degrees (and the like) are more likely to end up being dependent on society.

If that is the case, when you explain this to non-Jews, you are only providing them with a partial picture of the situation. We, as Jews, understand the complete picture. The financial value of Torah study as it relates to Parnassah, our high standard of living, the large families, etc.. And we all see how the situation doesn't really work well, so of course we 'don't get' that rationalization that some try to pacify us with.

Last edited by jkl on Thu, Dec 07 2017, 3:25 pm; edited 1 time in total

southernbubby ↓

Thu, Dec 07 2017, 3:23 pm

If a person paid Social Security all the years that he worked, and that is claimed by the worker when he retires, then why would that be considered a form of welfare? I am not sure what happens when someone never paid Social Security such as if they were unemployed all of their life, and it is possible that those who live for a long time might get more than what they paid, but that would be no different than someone who put away money for retirement because basically, it was money that they earned.

Welfare, OTOH, is not money that the recipient earned. The government was thinking about capping SNAP benefits at a family of 6, IOW, 2 parents and 4 kids or 1 parent and 5 kids but having another child would not raise the amount. That obviously didn't get passed, but if it did, it would adversely affect the frum community and I am not sure that it would stop everyone from multiplying but might deter some people.

As far as the guy with the sign, why doesn't he find something more productive to do? Does he really think someone cares what his sign says? They all think he's crazy and he probably is. Is his sign indicative of what everyone else thinks but doesn't bother to stand outside with a sign? Probably, but who cares? Should we live our lives according to what everyone else thinks? OTOH, we should be aware that these benefits might not forever be available and that another strategy would have to be worked out if this came to pass.

↑ Fox ↓

Thu, Dec 07 2017, 3:36 pm

southernbubby wrote:

Social security recipients typically collect far more than they ever paid.

The point is that most people choose their prejudices and allow the "welfare" and "drain on society" arguments to flow from the prejudice -- not the other way around.

If Imamothers and others were honest with themselves, they would acknowledge that farmers, for example, receive far more in government "help" than anyone learning in kollel. It is not uncommon for millionaire farm owners to collect hundreds of thousands of dollars in farm subsidies each year.

Typically, though, when I bring this up, people say, "Well, I don't know any farmers." In other words, they're not opposed to giving government help to people who don't really need it. They just against giving it to people they don't like in the first place.

↑ southernbubby ↓

Thu, Dec 07 2017, 3:43 pm

Fox wrote:

No but people are understandably wary of groups who get government benefits from cradle to grave. You may have raised your children to grow up, leave home, rent an apartment, get a job, get, married, etc. and someone else may have raised their child to have a baby, grow up, apply for section 8, and apply for government benefits. Most people don't want an entire society of advantage takers in their midst. Most people don't want to pay for other peoples bad choices and don't want a society built on bad choices. If you followed the rules and worked hard, you expect others to do the same and want only to help when the person is needy despite following the rules of society.

I'm glad that frum people can learn in kollel and have large families, even if it involves government help, but then we have to be willing to grant that to others whose lifestyle is not so noble.

↑ Mommyg8 ↓

Thu, Dec 07 2017, 3:44 pm

shyshira wrote:

To quote kjl:

"As 've just said above, society generally doesn't mind helping out people who are attempting to establish themselves on their own two feet. So student loans, student grants, etc, are generally not considered to be welfare. But they do have issues with people who are setting themselves up for a lifetime of support. And in all fairness, is it not completely understandable?"

I was responding to the above. And do you really imagine that everyone who graduates with a liberal arts degree, humanities degree, or history degree really has a plumb job waiting for them? Really?

↑ shyshira ↓

Thu, Dec 07 2017, 3:47 pm

southernbubby wrote:

Social Security payments to the government is more like a mandatory insurance premium - which you can 'cash in on' if you (or your spouse or child) survive to your retirement!

A person can't claim the retirement benefit, if he has have never worked and paid into it (unless the claim is for a spouse). Disability payments may different.

↑ jkl ↓

Thu, Dec 07 2017, 3:50 pm

Fox wrote:

If Imamothers and others were honest with themselves, they would acknowledge that farmers, for example, receive far more in government "help" than anyone learning in kollel. It is not uncommon for millionaire farm owners to collect hundreds of thousands of dollars in farm subsidies each year.

Because this is not exactly an equal analogy. Farmers are subsidized for the better of EVERYONE ELSE. If it wouldn't be sustainable to grow food, the entire food market, rich and poor alike, would be in trouble. So the gov't steps in and assures that the main staple of society, the agriculture, stays stable. They pay for not developing land so that the farmers can earn a decent price for their goods, they subsidize products that wouldn't be worthwhile for the farmers to grow, so the rest of us have food to eat.

We, on the other hand, are asking to be subsidized for the good of OURSELVES only. We want to continue Torah studying, while living in very comfortable houses, with nice clothing and have large families too, etc.

Isn't there a very big difference between the two?

↑ jkl ↓

Thu, Dec 07 2017, 3:54 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

I didn't say "plumb" job, I said they get a job (decent pay) AND set up a lifestyle that works with their income.

We set up a system, that offers no pay or very low pay for it AND set up a lifestyle that absolutely does NOT work with the parnassah setup.

Can anyone really come out and say that our system works?

↑ shyshira ↓

Thu, Dec 07 2017, 3:57 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

Are students receiving federal or state money loans and grants to study at Kollel?

And no - I didn't say that, not even close.

↑ Fox ↓

Thu, Dec 07 2017, 4:18 pm

jkl wrote:

We, on the other hand, are asking to be subsidized for the good of OURSELVES only. We want to continue Torah studying, while living in very comfortable houses, with nice clothing and have large families too, etc.

Isn't there a very big difference between the two?

Not necessarily, and that's my point.

Government programs -- whether it's farm subsidies, SNAP, or educational financial aid -- don't do well at taking into account individual circumstances and life choices.

It is considered perfectly acceptable, for example, to take out a truckload of student loans and receive direct financial aid while majoring in sculpture or applied dance theory. Why? Because the people who wrote the legislation and the people who voted for it decided that an educated populace is generally a good thing -- even if some individuals' educational choices are of dubious benefit to the whole.

Let's go back to my farm example. Drive an hour west of Chicago and you'll be surrounded by some of the richest, most fertile land in the world. The yellow and green Lamborghinis (John Deere tractors costing up to $500K) are busy working 24/7 each spring and fall. Yet those farmers are just as eligible for farm subsidies as a subsistence farmer in Mississippi.

If your concern is about the poor use of government resources, then you'll be at least as concerned about farm subsidies paid to rich farmers and financial aid for sculptors and dance theorists as you will about aid given to kollel learners. In fact, I suspect aid given to rich farmers and students with dubiously useful majors outstrips monies paid to kollel families by an enormous amount.

But my observation is that many people here on Imamother and elsewhere care a great deal less about the money as long as it's not seen to be subsidizing something they don't like in the first place.

↑ Fox ↓

Thu, Dec 07 2017, 4:28 pm

southernbubby wrote:

Well, if those are your guidelines, farm subsidies fit the picture of cradle-to-grave assistance far more than any other government program.

Again, farm subsidies are just an example. Yet they are incredibly costly, and it makes no sense whatsoever to get upset about various "welfare" programs while blithely ignoring such expensive government programs.

Which is why I get very suspicious when people claim the moral high ground.

↑ flowerpower ↓

Thu, Dec 07 2017, 4:30 pm

southernbubby wrote:

Most that take benefits work hard. Really hard. They don't go to protests near wall street on a work day or in front of Trump Tower. They work hard to raise a family. They don't do drugs or buy illegal guns in the black market during the day. They have a lot more expenses than the average Joe and his family of 2 kids. They have to make shabbos every week, pay tuitions, make bar mitzvahs, buy kosher food, make 8 day yomim tovim that cost a lot..... many would not make it without the help.

↑ jkl ↓

Thu, Dec 07 2017, 4:37 pm

Fox wrote:

I beg to differ.

There will always be people maximizing or taking advantage of programs. There is no perfect setup that will weed those people out. But in generally in most of your examples, the concept behind that program was for the benefit of society or helping people get on their feet.

Student loans - was established to help people educate themselves so they can get well paying jobs. Of course, there will be some who will take advantage of this program and get dancing or art degrees, but they are defying the general premise of the program.

Farms - as mentioned earlier, the purpose of the subsidies was established to ensure that there will always be a steady supply of the main staple of society. Of course there will be people out there maximizing it, taking advantage of it, and even going about it illegally, but again the premise behind it was for societal benefits.

I'm not worried about poor use of government resources - nor am I truly invested in ensuring that they are used in appropriate manners. And nor am I trying to compare the amount of subsidies attributed to each group. I'm trying to point out the premise for us taking federal funds to subsidize a kollel lifestyle is us taking advantage of society, instead of us contributing to society. And I'm trying to point out why its viewed so negatively outside of our system.

From the viewpoint of outsiders: - We are setting up an unsustainable society, by not providing our kids a proper education, encouraging Torah study for life while having large families, and living large AND expecting society to support us. The whole premise is wrong and that's what their concern is mostly about. They wouldn't be so disparaging if it would be a select few taking advantage of an accepted program, they are concerned because the premise of our setup is based on their backs, without any benefits to anyone but ourselves