Lakewood offensive sign?

↑ Mommyg8 ↓

Thu, Dec 07 2017, 3:34 pm

WhatFor, I agree that there are a lot misconceptions. Here are three of them:

The people in Lakewood are not paying taxes. Lakewood is a huge and diverse community, and I would guess that the majority are considered "working" people. I am including chinuch as a job. Even if the husband is in kollel, the vast majority of the wives work. Almost everyone here has some sort of income, so they have to pay taxes. Even those whose income is too low for income taxes, are still paying social security tax, medicare tax, etc. Also, they are still paying property taxes, either directly or indirectly, sales tax, and gasoline tax. And the property taxes are quite high, and not just on the "McMansions".

Lakewood townhouses are luxury homes. Lakewood townhouses are built with four or five bedrooms, but they are not luxury homes because - a. the quality is so bad and b. because they have no property. They are basically rowhouses with an extra bedroom. That's all.

All the people in Lakewood are living in huge mansions and are getting welfare. I know many people who are living in basements with quite a few children. The real estate market is out of reach for a lot of people. And I would guess that the vast majority who are buying homes, or bought homes in the past, are being helped out by their parents (just like in every other community).

As an aside, I am wondering why the state and local tax federal deduction, as well as the property tax and interest deduction, is not considered welfare, but WIC is. But that's a different discussion.

Last edited by Mommyg8 on Thu, Dec 07 2017, 3:35 pm; edited 1 time in total

mommyhood

Thu, Dec 07 2017, 3:34 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

I have been off WIC for a number of years already, as my youngest is too old, and I don't remember the guidelines. I do know that we were making a decent salary, and we were not eligible for any other programs, such as Section 8, food stamps, or Medicaid. I was not poor, I was middle income, but I agree that I was not rich either. I still think that 110,000 for a family of 8 is not POOR, it's middle income.

A family of 8 can make $76,442, that's a lot less than $110k. It's almost impossible for a frum family of 8 to live on that.

↑ shyshira ↓

Thu, Dec 07 2017, 3:37 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

no its not poor. looking at the chart for jerseycare (which I think was your reference for the 110K per year) its 300 - 355% of the federal poverty level which is 41K in 2017 for a family of 8.

so what multiple of the federal poverty level takes you from being 'low income' to being 'middle income' in your opinion?

↑ Mommyg8 ↓

Thu, Dec 07 2017, 3:40 pm

DVOM wrote:

How you feel about being on WIC is irrelevant. If you are accepting government assistance because you are meeting their income guidelines YOU ARE ON WELFARE.

I'm also on welfare. My children receive NJ familycare, and I get WIC.

Quote:

"think that people building McMansions breeds resentment - agree. Even if they are not welfare recipients (which have a feeling they're not).

And think that the word "welfare" has certain connotations, don't think that someone who is getting Jersey Care with an income of $110,000 a year fits that mold. also don't think that a family where one of the parents is a STUDENT fits that mold either.

would also respectfully ask that only people who either live in Lakewood, or have some kind of knowledge of how Lakewood works, respond to these posts.

disagree completely with most of your post, but will respond later, hopefully."

My husband is a student. I work full time. We qualify for WELFARE. When he finishes his doctorate in his chosen field, I hope we won't qualify for or need welfare anymore, but right now, I'm very grateful for the assistance.

Perhaps this will cause you to rethink the 'welfare mold' you're referring to.

So, by your logic, if someone is a student in BMG, they are making a chillul Hashem by receiving welfare, but if he is a student at a regular university it's ok?

For the record, I am not currently receiving ANY kind of welfare, including Jersey Care and WIC.

↑ mommyla ↓

Thu, Dec 07 2017, 3:46 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

You're making sweeping generalizations. Nobody believes that "all" of the people in Lakewood are living in mansions and getting welfare. And who said that nobody pays taxes?

Townhouses are pretty luxurious, even though they're built horribly. I live in a home under 2000 square feet. These homes are usually over 3000 and have a large kosher kitchen, large playroom, plenty of closets, a basement (rentable or not), several large bedrooms, and some of the newer ones have Pesach kitchens. That's pretty darn luxurious to me.

Either way, let's forget about the welfare for a little bit. An "old Lakewood" resident has seen, over the past two decades, his hometown turn from a quiet town to an overcrowded metropolis. Thousands of acres of trees have been cut down and replaced with rows of impersonal cookie-cutter homes. "All" politicians are "controlled" by the yeshiva; many positions of power have been filled with Jews regardless of qualifications, who try to turn as many laws as possible to benefit the Jews. And don't forget the quiet streets, which are now jam-packed with atrocious traffic and inconsiderate, aggressive drivers. Those "pray for me, I drive in Lakewood" bumper stickers? They're totally justified. People moving to surrounding townships have had their car insurance rates plummet drastically when they leave Lakewood.

If it happened to "my town," I'd be upset too.

Fox ↓

Thu, Dec 07 2017, 3:52 pm

WhatFor wrote:

I always find it confusing when people on these programs tend to vote against their interests, or at least don't seem to fully understand that they're on these programs.

But then, I suppose there are a lot of things that I deal with daily that I don't fully understand either.

I think most of us fall into this category at one time or another.

After all, how many of us think of government-funded student financial aid as "welfare"? Even government-guaranteed student loans are a form of government assistance.

How is taking tax deduction for things like dependents and mortgage interest not receiving a little gift from the government because . . . somebody at some point convinced Congress it was a good idea.

I've had this conversation with farmers in the past. Many of these are fine, upstanding families who would never, ever take "welfare" -- and who can tell you all the ins and outs of completing farm subsidy forms.

And I haven't even addressed Social Security and Medicare -- both of which result in a net transfer of assets. These are basically Ponzi schemes kept alive by government infusion of cash.

No honest person would condone outright lying or even cynical manipulation in order to receive government benefits. That said, people are remarkably hypocritical when it comes to what they consider "welfare" to include.

↑ InnerMe ↓

Thu, Dec 07 2017, 4:05 pm

Fox wrote:

I agree with your post. And it is true, we all do this at varying degrees. But then we justify that the one we benefit from does not really fall into the category.

It boils down to the fact that we are uncomfortable being on "wellfare", especially in light of current tensions surrounding this topic, so we say "my wellfare is not 'real wellfare" I take student loans, but well that's not really "wellfare". Because that implies something dishonorable and of course I am not that.

We each draw the lines somewhere else, so we can reassure ourselves that *that's* not us.

↑ shyshira ↓

Thu, Dec 07 2017, 4:40 pm

InnerMe wrote:

student loans are not welfare. (borrowing money at a less than market rate is not welfare).

the fact that our pocket books are all affected by government laws around money does not mean we all receive welfare like benefits.

that said - if you qualify to receive something... take it. If you are frustrated that your income level is such that you qualify for something - do something about it.

↑ Mommyg8 ↓

Thu, Dec 07 2017, 4:49 pm

sima wrote:

Yes, and that's why the guy was standing there with his stop multiplying sign.

Not that I think he did the right thing, but really,you can't have 6,7,8,........kids and then be on all sorts of programs.

It's the same story in NY in Brooklyn, etc. People working off the books, if at all, to qualify for programs. (welfare, wtvr you want to call it) bc that is what it is.

The tax payers are supporting you and your choices.

So, all the women on this forum who are on welfare, do you think that you are contributing to the problem?

I ask this question with a completely clear conscience, as I am not on any kind of government welfare, as I am no longer on WIC.

And as for the word "welfare" - it must be a generational thing. When I was growing up, welfare was the program that is now called TANF.

↑ Mommyg8 ↓

Thu, Dec 07 2017, 5:00 pm

InnerMe wrote:

This is a great thoughtful question.. perhaps start a new thread, and let this remain for the guy and his math problems.

No, it wasn't a real question. I was just wondering how someone can go on and on about how terrible it is that half of Lakewood is on welfare, if they themselves are on welfare. And can they now justify that man's sign if they themselves have kids and are on welfare of some sort?

And I still don't think it's such a terrible thing, AND if the government is offering and you're eligible there's no shame in taking. And... I still think that you can be middle class and be eligible for welfare (it sounds like a contradiction in my mind, but it must be just me). So welfare is not necessarily just for the poor.

I was not trying to point fingers at anyone at all, just wondering if there's a bit of cognitive dissonance here...

↑ InnerMe ↓

Thu, Dec 07 2017, 5:08 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

I meant that seriously. I think you have a point that can be insightful to question and discuss. Your question about the double standard is a great one. No sarcasm meant in my post.

↑ shyshira ↓

Thu, Dec 07 2017, 5:12 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

I guess my post was extremely unclear. I meant that frum families have a hard time living on salaries that would be extremely fine for an average non-Jewish family. So the figures, for Jewish families, should really be higher. I'm not going to explain this any further.

And shyshira, not everyone has the luxury of expanding their income at will.

of course not. nor did I suggest that in the slightest. And some people who are lower earners have barriers that can't be overcome, (personal or societal), such that as much as they want to not be low earners, they are stuck. I get that. (and yes - if you (**not you Mommy8 -
read that as "a person") qualify for a social assistance program, someone government agency thinks that for your level of income, and your size of family you aren't earning enough to meet all your needs, which includes health insurance).

I didn't suggest either that people should do what they can so that they no longer qualify for programs... I just said that if you are frustrated that you do, do something about it. Seems that many people aren't frustrated by it - which is fine too.

Last edited by shyshira on Thu, Dec 07 2017, 5:17 pm; edited 1 time in total