Trump's remarks | Imamother

↑ sushilover ↓

Fri, Aug 18 2017, 8:57 am

marina wrote:

Quote:

You said you don't consider antifa worthy of your condemnation because they at least managed to not kill someone. Westboro Babtist Church never killed anyone at their rallies. Do you not condemn them?

I don't think that I don't condemn antifa. It's just that the Neo Nazis conduct and beliefs are so abhorrent that calling out the other side feels like equating the two.

marina wrote:

This happens somewhat frequently, and at some point I just learned that people look at things in context and by comparison, not on the statements' own merits. So too here. The vast majority of both sides condemn violence from whichever group. But emphasizing that both sides were wrong *at this time* suggests that you're equating the two, which I don't know that you really are.

I am equating neo nazis and antifa in that they both are violent and dangerous and their ideologies are anti democracy. I condemn them at this time as they were both involved in the violence at this time.
But you are correct, I don't think they are the same in every way.

↑ sushilover

Fri, Aug 18 2017, 9:17 am

marina wrote:

Sorry I forgot to respond to this earlier.

People want the statues removed because they consider them racist symbols that foment and encourage, or at least venerate bigotry. Living your life free of racism is plausibly a fundamental right, at least as enshrined by the 14th Amendment

People want the statues kept because they value preserving history. Living your life with preserved history is not considered a fundamental right by anything in the Constitution.

"All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

Which part of the 14th amendment states that living your life free of racism is a fundamental right?

look, swastikas, for example, are abhorrent symbols. But they are protected under the first amendment and if a community votes to have a swastika up for any reason, that doesn't violate the 14th amendment or any fundamental right. I can protest, boycott, etc. But you can't argue that their votes should be disqualified simply because there are few Jews and Blacks in that community. (The same cannot be said if a community votes to ban bris milah.That violates a fundamental right of religious freedom, so the federal govt can step in and declare the ban illegal)

↑ dancingqueen ↓

Fri, Aug 18 2017, 9:20 am

Squishy wrote:

Do you posit that only people against the removal of the statutes are neo-nazis?

62 percent of Americans want the statues to stay, and just 27 percent believe they should be removed because they’re offensive to some.
This is according to the PBS NewsHour, NPR and Marist Poll.

The left consistently misses the fact that nearly two in three want the statutes to remain as historical figures.

All they are interested in is denouncing Trump as bad. They are missing there are good people on both sides. They also miss the fact there are bad people on both sides.

They are out of touch.

That's a bummer for them. You know what else was a bummer? When more than half of the country did not vote for DJT, but he won the election anyway. So we can complain about it, but fact is he is president (for now). Same with this statue, a town council decided that it should come down via the democratic process and thats that. Americans do have the right to protest, which some did, though I am distressed at the violence and ideals of said protest. I don't think armed protests should be ok as a matter of fact.

↑ PinkFridge ↓

Fri, Aug 18 2017, 9:23 am

SixOfWands wrote:

I wonder if people here have a problem with the removal of this gem of a statue:

Its history, right?

But I don't think any of this has to do with a bunch of ugly statues. Its an excuse, not a cause.

I think that there is room for history, and room not to cause pain to people, especially when the pain is fresh. I'm not going to comment on any specifics but your post did remind me of a story about the Ponovezher Rav, Rav Kahaneman, zt"l, who rebuilt Torah during and after WWII. While fundraising in Rome, he asked to be taken to the arch of Titus, which surprised his host as the Rav wasn't exactly into touring. When he got there he looked at it and said something to the effect of, "Titus, we are still here! And where are you now?"

If anyone has a better nusach to share, please do. It's a powerful story.

↑ Jeanette ↓

Fri, Aug 18 2017, 9:50 am

Squishy wrote:

It's all about confederacy statues? That's what everyone is up in arms about?

Are we supposed to trust the fake polls all of a sudden that failed so spectacularly before the election? The same ones that tell us that Trump is historically unpopular?

If it's preserving history that we are so passionate about, how do you feel about the president tweeting out a BS story on general Pershing? I'm sure the preserve history brigade is absolutely outraged.

↑ MagentaYenta ↓

Fri, Aug 18 2017, 9:57 am

Jeanette wrote:

Please tell me in what language "Jews will not replace us" means "Don't tear down civil war monuments."

Trump is trying to change the subject. We will not let him.

'White supremacists blame Jewish community for political shifts in U.S. that granted blacks their civil rights and enabled waves of Hispanic immigration. Jews, they say, are the root of all evil.

“We killed 6 million Jews, 11 million undocumented immigrants is nothing,” a KKK leader Christopher Barker tells Univision News, during an interview with Univision’s late night news anchor, Ilia Calderon, for the show Aquí y Ahora.

Throughout the whole day, marchers displayed swastikas on shirts, flags and posters, as well as quotes from Adolf Hitler. They yelled “Heil Hitler!” and “Heil Trump!” And they stood outside a local Jewish temple with guns.

According to neo-Nazis, American Jews are a non-white race that is ruining the country. Longtime civil rights strategist Eric Ward says anti-Jewish sentiment is at the core of everything the Charlottesville rally goers stand for. The white supremacist worldview suggests whites are a minority under assault, and that Jews are seeking to take away their rights.

...
http://www.nova-magazine.net/t.....ideo/

↑ 33055 ↓

Fri, Aug 18 2017, 10:28 am

marina wrote:

Quote:

Why does what the left want weigh more than what the majority wants? Why do they get to shut down and destroy what they don't like?

1. I am going to challenge you on some of your data here. Maybe you're right about the statues, but here's a Pew Research poll showing that most Americans do not support leaving the flag up. http://www.people-press.org/20.....lity/

So it's a little more complicated than just saying the majority wants all historical symbols to stay.

2. Even if they do, I dk that making decisions via majority vote is optimal or even ethical. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, there are towns in America where majorities occasionally decide that circumcision or shechita is barbaric. I don't think what the majority wants is particularly dispositive in those cases, meaning that it doesn't end the conversation - we're not going say, okey doke no more bris milah in California bc the majority want it gone.

I didn't say the majority want all historic symbols to stay. Only a quarter of the adults are for removing the statues honoring the leaders of the confederacy. The where does it end argument is powerful even if the left refuses to recognize it. 86% of republicans are against their removal. Only 6% of the Republicans are for their removal! I think serious thought should go into this rather than reactionary hysteria.

What of the statutes that don't honor the leaders, but honor the sacrifices of the fallen solider or the women won lost everything?

↑ 33055 ↓

Fri, Aug 18 2017, 10:40 am

marina wrote:

Quote:

Like it or not, the destruction of the statutes was the genesis of the events in Charlottesville. But for the destruction of the statutes, this thread would not have started.

Do you really think the Neo Nazi would have stayed home had the statues never existed in the first place? If I just google right now, I can find so many Neo Nazi marches that just start up for whatever reason. Or are you still arguing that the majority here were not Nazis, but rather peaceful people who just wanted their voices heard about the statues?

Lol I keep writing statutes. In law school I kept writing statues.

The statues are a pretext which resonates with many people. It resonates with President Trump's base.

If the KKK were marching for a universally offensive purpose then I would not be chiming in on this thread.

↑ 33055 ↓

Fri, Aug 18 2017, 10:50 am

dancingqueen wrote:

The contest is not for the majority vote. Get over it. HTC could have won of only the rules were different. Who cares?

When the statues are coming down to avoid violence, the city governments are capitulating to bullies. The majority of Americans don't like this.

↑ 33055 ↓

Fri, Aug 18 2017, 11:01 am

Jeanette wrote:

NPR is fake?

I believe the poll starting only 6% of Republicans are for tossing the statues of confederate leaders.

My gut tells me that even fewer are for removing statues of fallen soldiers and women who lost everything.

↑ 33055 ↓

Fri, Aug 18 2017, 11:25 am

dancingqueen wrote:

Same thing honey. In both cases the democratic process has spoken and the ones who didn't get their way need to get over it.

Let them eat cake dancing queen? Your sentiment is just plain stupid. When you don't hear the concerns of the population, you allow the radicals to hear them.

The left is failing to see the ramifications of its foolish policies. I would not have supported Trump if my concerns were heard by moderates. I looked, but there was no one in touch with my concerns. Ramming social engineering down the silent majority and calling them deplorables is not the way to build support.

You don't think I am concerned when the KKK and friends are aligned with what the majority of the country wants and the municipal leaders are giving into bullies? If the left doesn't get a grip, and it doesn't appear they are, they are leaving a scary vacuum for the people who speak to them.

Last edited by 33055 on Fri, Aug 18 2017, 11:47 am; edited 1 time in total

↑ WhatFor ↓

Fri, Aug 18 2017, 11:40 am

Once again, I started this thread after the president said that there were fine people on both sides in Charlottesville.

Actually, in Charlottesville, a bunch of neo Nazi/ white supremacist groups requested a permit to permit to march. Their pre-march flyers indicated that at least one goal was to march against Jews running the country. They marched, murdered, severely injured and antagonized people.

Certainly there is some room for subjectivity in the word "fine" but if you think fine people would show up to march with such people, you have lost whatever moral compass you may have already had.

In the context of this conversation, specifically one saying," Nazis are bad; let's all condemn them unequivocally" it is inappropriate to try to distract people with a different conversation.

A different conversation is one which is not about the president's failure to unwaveringly denounce supporters of white supremacism.

Again: this thread isn't about Nazis being bad: it's about the president speaking in such a way that the KKK is interpreting as supporting them, they are announcing that they are appreciative of his support, and the president not trying to fix the record so to speak, or clarify that he does NOT support them.

Condemnation of any other group is not an appropriate topic for this conversation as it detracts from the issue. It's a "yes, but...."

There is no "but" in this context. It matters that the president is not unwavering in denouncing white supremacy.

Whether or not "fine people" want statues removed is irrelevant to a conversation about a march organized by white supremacists where white supremacists killed people.

↑ WhatFor ↓

Fri, Aug 18 2017, 11:50 am

Something that people seem to be overlooking, it's not about an individual's failure to condemn an extremist group. It's not about one person, what Jo Shmo would condemn.

It's about a president's walk-back on condemning Nazism after white supremacists marched and killed/injured people. The president of the United States said that fine people would show up to a white supremacist rally. Not Jo Shmo. Not a wealthy businessman. Not your local politician. The President of the United States.

That is not normal.

Please let that sink in. Please do not switch the subject.

When you switch the subject, when you try to talk over what happened, when you gloss over what happened, people's expectations of what is normal to accept of a US president is changed.

I expect a US president to condemn Nazis and white supremacists, without prodding and without qualifying, full stop. Anything less is unacceptable.

Please do not let him and his supporters try to distract you by switching the subject. Please do not gloss over this. This is not normal. It is not okay.

↑ SixOfWands ↓

Fri, Aug 18 2017, 11:56 am

Because I cannot hit like twice, I'll quote:

WhatFor wrote:

↑ 33055 ↓

Fri, Aug 18 2017, 12:12 pm

WhatFor wrote:

You don't read the news, nor did you read this thread.

I wrote earlier:

"Racism is evil -- and those who cause violence in its name are criminals and thugs, including KKK, neo-Nazis, white supremacists, and other hate groups are repugnant to everything we hold dear as Americans," This was Trump's response over the weekend.

"Those who spread violence in the name of bigotry strike at the very core of America," Trump further stated.

He denounced them.

But framing the issues into the window you want is dishonest and fails to take into account what others believe he meant. Those others are his base, and only 6% support the actions that is the genesis these events.

If President Trump chooses to call some people fine rather than half of his supporters deplorable, it is understandable.

I never took it to mean he was supporting the KKK. His favorite child is Jewish as are her husband and children.

The organizers have a first amendment right to protest the removal of the statue.

No one here is supporting those flyers. DT didn't say there are some fine people printing nasty flyers.

↑ WhatFor ↓

Fri, Aug 18 2017, 12:46 pm

Squishy- his first remarks said there were bad ppl on both sides which angered a lot of people because only one group showed up with the stated goals of ultimately committing genocide and killed/severely injure people. His second remarks, made after ppl were outraged, were the ones you posted. They were not made over the weekend but on Monday evening. In his third set of remarks, made after the ones you posted, he said there were fine people on both sides in the march in Charlottesville. That was when I started this thread.

I can go broken record over here. Fine people don't drive or fly for miles show up to rallies organized by white supremacists where one of the stated goals of the rally is to take the country back from Jews. Fine people don't march with armed people holding torches chanting "blood and soil" and "Jews will not replace us."

The president said that fine people could join such a march. That is outrageous.

Blue jay ↓

Fri, Aug 18 2017, 12:56 pm

Squishy wrote:

Great post. Especially in the bolded print.

↑ Jeanette ↓

Fri, Aug 18 2017, 3:06 pm

Squishy wrote:

You are cherry picking polls that support whatever narrative you want to spin. Fact is, if we governed by NPR opinion polls Trump wouldn't be president. The Charlottesville statue was removed by a democratic process. There's no need for a national referendum on whether a single locality is permitted to erect or remove statues as they see fit.

I also think it's disingenuous to pretend that this protest had anything to do with preserving history.