Trump's remarks | Imamother

↑ Fox ↓

Wed, Aug 16 2017, 2:14 pm

marina wrote:

the city's plan to remove the statute of Robert Lee? What are we all talking about here?

Well, people are talking about all kinds of things. Threads are like that.

However, I have absolutely no problem with a city deciding to remove a monument. I have absolutely no problem with a city deciding not to remove a monument. I have no problem with a city erecting additional signage that explains the context of the statue or clarifies the role of the individual or the statue itself.

Interestingly, the fight over Confederate statues in Charlottesville was not initiated by the African-American community, but by a white city council member. That's not necessarily wrong, but it smacks a little too much of paternalism for my taste.

Of course, as a Chicagoan, we have a different way of dealing with statues of Civil War participants, even those on the right side of history:

A Rude Baseball Tradition

↑ Fox ↓

Wed, Aug 16 2017, 2:27 pm

Amarante wrote:

Baltimore removed all statues last night in order to avoid what happened.

And you're okay with this? Rather than debate and/or discuss the proper thing to do through the city council or some other governing body, you prefer a situation in which the threat of mob violence drives the decision?

Point for Antifa and the Stalinists!

↑ SixOfWands ↓

Wed, Aug 16 2017, 2:28 pm

Fox wrote:

Oh for heaven's sake. City Council voted unanimously to remove statues. You think that's Stalinist?

↑ Fox ↓

Wed, Aug 16 2017, 2:34 pm

SixOfWands wrote:

Oh for heaven's sake. City Council voted unanimously to remove statues. You think that's Stalinist?

When it's done specifically as a response to the threat of violence, yes.

If you read carefully, you see that the City Council had originally recommended the removal of two statues and the retention of two others. However, when threatened with violence, they changed their minds rather quickly.

Again, I don't necessarily have an opinion on whether statues should or shouldn't be removed. It depends. But giving in to threats of violence doesn't bode well for the future.

↑ SixOfWands ↓

Wed, Aug 16 2017, 2:37 pm

sushilover wrote:

What fundamental right would removing or not removing a statue conflict with? It's a matter of opinion that could definitely be voted on, and your opinion is not worth less than mine just because of the color of your skin.

We should vote on whether or not to remove statues. rather than abide by a vote of the legitimate City Council? (Which was challenged. And stayed.)

What else should we take out of the hands of legislative bodies?

Can we vote on the repeal of the rule that prohibited mentally disabled people from purchasing guns? Pretty please?

How about on the repeal of a regulation which prevented coal-mining companies from dumping debris and toxic waste into nearby streams and waterways.

Rolling back Dodd-Frank disclosure requirements?

Popular vote, no electoral college. Let's do it!

↑ sushilover ↓

Wed, Aug 16 2017, 2:45 pm

SixOfWands wrote:

You misunderstand me completely . I'm saying that the only way to remove statues is by city council/ elected official. As I said, don't unlawfully pull a statue down and call yourself an "anti" fascist.

Are you done with the snarkiness?

↑ Fox ↓

Wed, Aug 16 2017, 2:55 pm

Really, allowing the whole business of Confederate statues to morph into a racial issue is, in a word, stupid.

There are tons of reasons that public art should be, ahem, retired from time to time. There are tons of reasons that various groups may object to certain public art. Over the years, there have been objections to public art because it's allegedly ugly; because it features nudity; because it's too expensive; because it's too avant garde; because it's too representational; because it's irrelevant . . . Some of these objections are legitimate and some are crazy. Well, that's what happens when you provide something for the public.

Cities should have -- and I believe many do have -- special bodies that are responsible for the upkeep, rotation, and purchase of public art. These governing bodies simply need a process through which individuals and groups can calmly present their views on a regular basis and the options evaluated.

African-Americans could weigh in on the specific Confederate monuments that are particularly bothersome. Free-market advocates could complain about Seattle's statue of Lenin. Mothers near Belmont Avenue and Sheridan Road in Chicago could petition to take down General Sheridan's statue because their kids keep asking, "Why is the underneath of that horse painted orange?"

It shouldn't be rocket science to provide a process for removing problematic public art, regardless of the specific problem.

↑ WhatFor ↓

Wed, Aug 16 2017, 3:20 pm

So a bunch of armed white supremacists came from all over the US and Canada to protest small college town Charlottesville's decision to remove a statue with the stated goal of Uniting the Right against Jews and other minorities, they murdered a person and caused serious injury to approximately 20 more people, and left invigorated, and ppl on here think that the appropriate line of inquiry in response to this event is discussing and condemning an obscure group of "leftists" who most leftists haven't heard of?

Do y'all do that after every terrorist attack? Like when a terrorist drives his car into Israeli civilians, do you respond by trying to divert the focus on an extremist group of provocative settlers who most Israelis never heard of? Do you really think that's the appropriate response?

↑ sushilover ↓

Wed, Aug 16 2017, 3:30 pm

WhatFor wrote:

I of course don't speak for all ppl here, but let me repeat:

sushilover wrote:

Luckily, I'm seeing plenty of people on the right condemn Trump's remarks, condemn white nationalists and the alt right, and ALSO condemn antifa.
I wish I saw the same on the left. Instead, from what I have seen, anyone condemning antifa gets attacked for 'victim blaming' or gets attacked as white nationalist apologists.

I'm speaking from personal experience. I've been called a neo nazi for calling out antifa as well as white nationalists on social media.
Me.
A nazi.

Um... I'm a non-white Jew.

Baffling!

↑ MagentaYenta ↓

Wed, Aug 16 2017, 3:34 pm

DrMom wrote:

The fact that you never heard of Antifa is a testament to how little coverage this violent and growing movement is getting in the mainstream US press.

They are far-left Fascists/Anarchists who have been marching on college campuses, instigating riots, intimidating police, physically assaulting anyone who disagrees with them for the past few months. They sometimes partner with BLM and other far left organizations.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-.....30831

Like Neo-Nazis, they are hateful and violent. They are anti-Semites too, in case that interests anyone here.

Disliking them in no way implies an embrace of Neo-Nazis. I dislike both radical groups and think they are both disgusting cancers on American society.

The antifas have been getting major publicity since the WTO Battle in Seattle (1999), their movement grew during and after Occupy Wall Street (2011), they are not newcomers to the political scene. If your news sources don't report on them it's likely you haven't been aware of their presence. Their precursors were the old left anti syndicalists and other red flag organizations.

mommy3b2c ↓

Wed, Aug 16 2017, 3:45 pm

WhatFor wrote:

There are most certainly ALOT of people on the left who will focus on an extremist group of provocative settlers. Do you call them out as well for their behavior?

↑ SixOfWands ↓

Wed, Aug 16 2017, 3:48 pm

MagentaYenta wrote:

We've discussed them here before, under the name Black Bloc. They're also known as anarchists. (My graduate school boyfriend roomed with an anarchist. We made it a point of reciting the Pledge of Allegiance on the phone once a week or so, for the benefit of whomever we were pretty sure was listening.) They aren't known to back down from a fight. But did they provoke one? According to witnesses, no.

Quote:

There were, as it turns out, a great number of Charlottesville locals present to witness the violence and lawlessness on display in this town—my town—last weekend. I asked local witnesses, many in the faith community, every one of whom was on the streets of Charlottesville on Saturday, whether there was a violent, club-wielding mob threatening the good people on team Nazi. Here’s what I heard back:

Brandy Daniels
Postdoctoral fellow at the Luce Project on Religion and Its Publics at UVA

It was basically impossible to miss the antifa for the group of us who were on the steps of Emancipation Park in an effort to block the Nazis and alt-righters from entering. Soon after we got to the steps and linked arms, a group of white supremacists—I’m guessing somewhere between 20-45 of them—came up with their shields and batons and bats and shoved through us. We tried not to break the line, but they got through some of us—it was terrifying, to say the least—shoving forcefully with their shields and knocking a few folks over. We strengthened our resolve and committed to not break the line again. Some of the anarchists and anti-fascist folks came up to us and asked why we let them through and asked what they could do to help. Rev. Osagyefo Sekou talked with them for a bit, explaining what we were doing and our stance and asking them to not provoke the Nazis. They agreed quickly and stood right in front of us, offering their help and protection.

Less than 10 minutes later, a much larger group of the Nazi alt-righters come barreling up. My memory is again murky on the details. (I was frankly focused on not bolting from the scene and/or not soiling myself—I know hyperbole is common in recounting stories like these, but I was legitimately very worried for my well-being and safety, so I was trying to remember the training I had acquired as well as, for resolve, to remember why I was standing there.) But it had to have been at least 100 of them this go around. I recall feeling like I was going to pass out and was thankful that I was locked arms with folks so that I wouldn’t fall to the ground before getting beaten. I knew that the five anarchists and antifa in front of us and the 20 or so of us were no match for the 100-plus of them, but at this point I wasn’t letting go.

“Cornel West said that he felt that the antifa saved his life. I didn’t roll my eyes at that statement or see it as an exaggeration.”
Brandy Daniels
At that point, more of the anarchists and antifa milling nearby saw the huge mob of the Nazis approach and stepped in. They were about 200-300 feet away from us and stepped between us (the clergy and faith leaders) and the Nazis. This enraged the Nazis, who indeed quickly responded violently. At this point, Sekou made a call that it was unsafe—it had gotten very violent very fast—and told us to disperse quickly.

While one obviously can’t objectively say what a kind of alternate reality or “sliding doors”–type situation would have been, one can hypothesize or theorize. Based on what was happening all around, the looks on their faces, the sheer number of them, and the weapons they were wielding, my hypothesis or theory is that had the antifa not stepped in, those of us standing on the steps would definitely have been injured, very likely gravely so. On Democracy Now, Cornel West, who was also in the line with us, said that he felt that the antifa saved his life. I didn’t roll my eyes at that statement or see it as an exaggeration—I saw it as a very reasonable hypothesis based on the facts we had.

Rabbi Rachel Schmelkin
Congregation Beth Israel

There was a group of antifa defending First United Methodist Church right outside in their parking lot, and at one point the white supremacists came by and antifa chased them off with sticks.

Rebekah Menning
Charlottesville resident

I stood with a group of interfaith clergy and other people of faith in a nonviolent direct action meant to keep the white nationalists from entering the park to their hate rally. We had far fewer people holding the line than we had hoped for, and frankly, it wasn’t enough. No police officers in sight (that I could see from where I stood), and we were prepared to be beaten to a bloody pulp to show that while the state permitted white nationalists to rally in hate, in the many names of God, we did not. But we didn’t have to because the anarchists and anti-fascists got to them before they could get to us. I’ve never felt more grateful and more ashamed at the same time. The antifa were like angels to me in that moment.

Mary Esselman
Writer

My 13-year-old son and I stood by ourselves on the corner down the street from the synagogue, in front of the Catholic Church, trying to walk back home but interrupted by a stream of white extremist marchers, with their signs and firearms and crazy regalia. I felt like an idiot but tried to look each in the eye and said, “Peace,” and “Peace be with you,” with as much sincerity as I had in me, trying to reach some humanity in them, and they jeered and mocked me, called me what you might imagine, told my son, Luke, that his mom was a this and a that. And now I learn that my son and labradoodle and I, and our little “peace be with you”s are apparently “alt-left.”

Our path home was blocked by them, and we had no choice but to face them. Just us alone on that street corner, and all of them menacing, streaming past us on their way to the rally. Later, when we were a block away from where everyone was clashing and considering going to the front steps of the public library, there was a big line of white supremacists, the leader wearing some kind of yellow spiked helmet, and as they tromped toward the rally, these lovely older women standing beside us wearing sky blue T-shirts that said “Quaker” kind of trotted alongside them gently, holding signs that said “Love.” Alt-left for sure. I was armed with my iPhone and my dog’s leash. Luke was armed with his acne and hormones.

Rev. Seth Wispelwey
Directing minister of Restoration Village Arts and consulting organizer for Congregate C'ville

I am a pastor in Charlottesville, and antifa saved my life twice on Saturday. Indeed, they saved many lives from psychological and physical violence—I believe the body count could have been much worse, as hard as that is to believe. Thankfully, we had robust community defense standing up to white supremacist violence this past weekend. Incredibly brave students held space at the University of Virginia and stared down a torch-lit mob that vastly outnumbered them on Friday night. On Saturday, battalions of anti-fascist protesters came together on my city’s streets to thwart the tide of men carrying weapons, shields, and Trump flags and sporting MAGA hats and Hitler salutes and waving Nazi flags and the pro-slavery “stars and bars.”

“They have their tools, and they are not ones I will personally use, but our purposes were the same: block this violent tide.”
Rev. Seth Wispelwey
Out of my faith calling, I feel led to pursue disciplined, nonviolent direct action and witness. I helped lead a group of clergy who were trained and committed to the same work: to hold space on the frontline of the park where the rally was to be held. And then some of us tried to take the steps to one of the entrances. God is not OK with white supremacy, and God is on the side of all those it tries to dehumanize. We feel a responsibility to visibly, bodily show our solidarity with the oppressed and marginalized.

A phalanx of neo-Nazis shoved right through our human wall with 3-foot-wide wooden shields, screaming and spitting homophobic slurs and obscenities at us. It was then that antifa stepped in to thwart them. They have their tools to achieve their purposes, and they are not ones I will personally use, but let me stress that our purposes were the same: block this violent tide and do not let it take the pedestal.

The white supremacists did not blink at violently plowing right through clergy, all of us dressed in full clerical garb. White supremacy is violence. I didn’t see any racial justice protesters with weapons; as for antifa, anything they brought I would only categorize as community defense tools and nothing more. Pretty much everyone I talk to agrees—including most clergy. My strong stance is that the weapon is and was white supremacy, and the white supremacists intentionally brought weapons to instigate violence.

↑ WhatFor ↓

Wed, Aug 16 2017, 3:53 pm

sushilover wrote:

I'm speaking from personal experience. I've been called a neo nazi for calling out antifa as well as white nationalists on social media.
Me.
A nazi.

Um... I'm a non-white Jew.

Baffling!

Well if your response to a terrorist attack is to highlight other ideological groups that may or may not share certain beliefs with the victims of said attack, ppl will reasonably question whether you are blaming the victim. Otherwise, of what relevance are those groups to a discussion about white supremacist terrorism.

If you want to call out other ideologies, go ahead. Ppl were free to post about these groups for years. If you bring them up directly in the context of a denunciation of terrorist murders, ppl are going to assume you think they're relevant.

IMO, when someone's ideology impels them to mow down a bunch of innocent civilians, no one else's ideology should be relevant to criticizing that behavior. If ppl cannot condemn terrorism full-stop, they give the appearance of trying to minimize it.

↑ WhatFor ↓

Wed, Aug 16 2017, 3:54 pm

mommy3b2c wrote:

There are most certainly ALOT of people on the left who will focus on an extremist group of provocative settlers. Do you call them out as well for their behavior?

Of course. It's not even a question.

Edited to add: I've actually never seen that done on this forum which is why this reaction is surprising.

Last edited by WhatFor on Wed, Aug 16 2017, 4:33 pm; edited 1 time in total

Aylat ↓

Wed, Aug 16 2017, 3:54 pm

Fox wrote:

Fox, I often enjoy your analyses of politics and other topics. I don't normally comment but I have to here.

Given the issues involved, both historically and nowadays, this response is insulting and unworthy of you.

↑ Fox ↓

Wed, Aug 16 2017, 3:58 pm

WhatFor wrote:

I think it is quite appropriate to challenge the conclusions of people who proudly claim not to know much about the situation in Charlottesville or elsewhere.

If someone has never heard of Antifa, well, I have to question how informed she is about this and related topics. As I suggested before, check Google. The MSM has been filled with descriptions and discussions about Antifa.

Now, I can understand missing a beat in the news cycle. We've all done it at one time or another.

But you're claiming ignorance as an excuse for defending anarchists who wish to do away with the rule of law and totalitarians who want to be the law. You're siding with people who venerate some of the world's most evil people for the simple reason that they've declared themselves in opposition to those who venerate others of the world's most evil people.

As I said on my first post on this thread, I would be delighted for the white supremacists and the Antifa thugs to battle it out amongst themselves. Good riddance to bad rubbish.

↑ Fox ↓

Wed, Aug 16 2017, 4:00 pm

Aylat wrote:

Given the issues involved, both historically and nowadays, this response is insulting and unworthy of you.

Huh? I must have missed the insulting part. How is it insulting for people to have a process through which they can present their grievances about public art and have those grievances addressed without violence?

↑ Aylat

Wed, Aug 16 2017, 4:09 pm

Fox wrote:

Sorry, I didn't articulate fully. My strong reaction on reading your post was that comparing a statue honouring a man who fought for slavery to an statue that is ugly - was flippant and therefore insulting.

No problem with having a community process for choosing public art installations.

Completely opposed to the violence that was expressed.

↑ sushilover ↓

Wed, Aug 16 2017, 4:10 pm

WhatFor wrote:

1)Yes I would denounce violent and hateful israeli movements. I think it is ALWAYS appropriate to denounce violence
2) How is this a diversion? Heather Heyer was killed during a violent altercation between white nationalist scum and antifa scum. This does not mean that Heather was antifa, of course. But it does mean that it behooves all freedom loving Americans to condemn any movement which espouses violence.

↑ sushilover ↓

Wed, Aug 16 2017, 4:17 pm

WhatFor wrote:

They are relevant because the violence was not one sided, contrary to what sixof wands is saying. I can bring links when I have more time.

I condemn both sides. Why can't you?

WhatFor wrote:

If you want to call out other ideologies, go ahead. Ppl were free to post about these groups for years. If you bring them up directly in the context of a denunciation of terrorist murders, ppl are going to assume you think they're relevant.

IMO, when someone's ideology impels them to mow down a bunch of innocent civilians, no one else's ideology should be relevant to criticizing that behavior. If ppl cannot condemn terrorism full-stop, they give the appearance of trying to minimize it.

That is a stretch, to say the least.
Condemning more than one group at a time is not minimizing either of the groups.

"I condemn Hitler. I condemn Stalin. "
"Whoa!! Are you minimizing Nazism???? How dare you condemn two hateful and murderous ideologies at once?!"