Trump's remarks | Imamother

↑ marina ↓

Wed, Aug 16 2017, 10:11 am

sushilover wrote:

amarante didn't say she disagrees with antifa, just that she does not know who they are shock

Would you be shocked if a right winger said they did not know who David Duke and refuses to disavow him? (trip down memory lane to Jake Tapper's infamous Trump interview)

Amarante can come clarify herself as she pleases, but I read her comment to be as follows: The entire left does not speak with one voice. I am on the left and I have no idea who these extremists even are, nevermind agreeing with them.

If Amarante did not mean that, I will say the above under my name. I have no idea who these people are and I don't care to align myself with violent extremists on the left.

Now what? Can I still keep my lefty credentials or have I moved somewhere else in your view?

↑ sushilover ↓

Wed, Aug 16 2017, 10:13 am

marina wrote:

it's a good question and I don't know that voting is the answer. Say a city in America finds circumcision to be offensive and immoral and bans circumcision through a vote. Is that acceptable to you just because they voted? I don't think so.

If the voters are generally the people not from the affected ethnic/social group, I don't know that their votes are all that important to me.

Sooooo..... you don't believe in Democracy? Are you saying that votes should only be counted if the law affects you?? (You do know that this was a main point in the anti suffragette school of thought. Women don't serve in the military so they should not be able to vote when it affects the military etc)

(Regarding the circumcision question- they would have to prove harm in order to infringe on my religious liberties. So if circumcision were killing 10% of babies or something, yes, they would be able to vote it illegal. It's not, so I still have my first amendment rights. )

↑ Amarante ↓

Wed, Aug 16 2017, 10:14 am

Fox wrote:

Aaaand . . . point to conservatives!

Not at all. I read widely from what are considered to be trusted media sources. But if you are coming from a place that views NYT, WaPo, broadcast networks and other mainstream media as disseminating fake news, it is not worth it to have a discussion because at that point you are not offering an opinion based on facts but a political viewpoint.

I don't lump every person who is on the left as automatically a member of a monolithic movement. And calling a group anti fascist as a term of opprobrium is laughable to me. I would wear it as a badge of honor since I would assume the opposite is Pro fascist. 😀

Tell me the specific groups that are being lumped in with this right wing branding effort at tarnishing those who are against Nazis who were fascists. 😀 I confess this is very confusing that things have been twisted so that any moral person is defending neo Nazis. There has to be a discussiOn about this and claims that a statue erected by supporters of the Klan has historical significance and should be venerated.

Auschwitz and slave auction buildings are not intended to honor Nazis or slave traders. A statue in a public setting is intended to honor that person. There is no historical context stating the statue was erected or funded by bigots.

FWIW, there is extensive domestic terrorist activities by white supremists neo nazis, the militia movement etc. People familiar with terrorist organizations consider them to be a real threat. Remember McVeighand Kansas City. Pure white supremists militia domestic terrorists.

BLM is not the moral equivalent of neo nazis or the Klan anymore than the ADL is a terrorist group for its stance on civil rights issues for Jews, Blackx and other people whose civil rights are threatened.

And trump is such a weasel. Quick to pass judgment on every other incident including insulting the Merck CEO who resigned and yet he needed to get all the facts because he is always so prudent before rendering judgment.

Hypocrite who excoriated those who didn't say radical Islamic terrorists and yet he hasn't stated the act of driving a car into a crowd by a neo nazi was an act of domestic terrorism.

ETA. I agree with Marina's characterization of my unfamiliarity with antifa.

There are many many conservative right wing people who are appalled by the groups claiming membership in the altright. There are people who worked for Bush and on the campaigns for Romney and McCain who have come out strongly against this as a moral redline which Trumo has crossed.

Mario Rubio is a conservative who has named Trump specifically in his recent statement. The man who ran communications for Ted Cruz who is to the right oaf almost everyone is appalled.

This is hardly an issue of conservative versus fiery left wing radicals. It is decency versus hatred and bigotry.

Last edited by Amarante on Wed, Aug 16 2017, 10:22 am; edited 1 time in total

↑ marina ↓

Wed, Aug 16 2017, 10:16 am

sushilover wrote:

You sort of answered your first paragraph question with your second paragraph right here.

We all believe in the democratic process unless it conflicts with our fundamental rights.

↑ sushilover ↓

Wed, Aug 16 2017, 10:30 am

Amarante wrote:

What the heck is the antifa. I don't know what it is and I'm in the left of almost everyone on this forum.

What am I supposed to be condemning them for? Marching against white supremacists and nazis😱

I am glad the one news outlet is not using the self branding of the white supremacists and will stop referring to the altright but take the cloak of euphemism away and refer to them as neo nazis and white supremists and white nationalists.

If you want to provide me with a litany of the sins of this group called altifa I have never heard of with similar moral equivalences, please do so. But I am shocked there are any defenders of people who came out against neo nazis and white supremacists.

Antifa is a violent, anarchist movement. They infiltrate protests wearing face masks and instigate violence. Sometimes just the threat of antifa violence is enough to prevent right wing gatherings. They claim to be against white nationalists, but they call anyone to the right a nazi and then justify punching them.

Let me repeat: White nationalists are the scum of the earth. Antifa is a violent, hate filled group. I condemn them both and am disgusted by anyone who refuses to condemn EITHER one.

" Here's the moral solution, as always: Condemn violence and evil wherever it occurs. The racist philosophy of the alt-right is evil. The violence of the alt-right is evil. The communist philosophy of Antifa is evil. So is the violence of Antifa. If we are to survive as a republic, we must call out Nazis but not punch them; we must stop providing cover to anarchists and communists who seek to hide behind self-proclaimed righteousness to participate in violence. Otherwise, we won't be an honest or a free society."
-Ben Shapiro
https://townhall.com/columnist.....68998

↑ 33055 ↓

Wed, Aug 16 2017, 10:30 am

Amarante wrote:

You have to be kidding! Who do the auction blocks and the concentration camps were intended for? Work Shall Set You Free gates were intended to show the power and the might of the Nazis. Slave blocks were intended for the slave traders to make a profit.

↑ Jeanette ↓

Wed, Aug 16 2017, 10:37 am

sushilover wrote:

I have no issue with the above.

Where I do have an issue is a president who has no problem calling out his political opponents or people who displease him (nasty woman! Truly bad people! Nasty or sick guy!) suddenly becomes so measured and nuanced when it comes to calling out neo-nazis. It's even more disheartening to see intelligent Jewish people who can't seem to see through this charade and echo and amplify his message.

↑ sushilover ↓

Wed, Aug 16 2017, 10:45 am

WhatFor wrote:

I had never heard of Antifa until the white supremacists said it as well. Maybe it's an indication that they hardly have a voice in left leaning groups if so many ppl on the left never even heard of them?

They are certainly not as large a group as the right may portray them to be. Believe me when I tell you that neither are white supremacists. They are a minority group that have managed to make themselves seem way larger than they actually are thanks to their online presence and the eagerness of the media left to overinflate their influence and conflate them with conservatives.

WhatFor wrote:

And what do they have to do with the terrorist attack this past weekend? Or are we trying to qualify behaviors of white supremacists? Trying to figure this out.

They are both violent and have evil ideologies. If you cannot condemn them, that's pretty scary.

Marina posted an article showing that both sides were involved in teh violence. She says that the white nationalists were worse because they actually killed a woman. I hear that, but do not agree. I heard the same arguments in regard to Israel. That Israel is evil because more palestinians were killed than Israelis.
Other posters essentially said that if the antifa were fighting the neo nazis, that makes them the good guys. Like I said, You must realize that the enemy of your enemy is not always your friend.

↑ SixOfWands ↓

Wed, Aug 16 2017, 10:53 am

Its interesting to me that the only place that any of this seems to be even vaguely debatable is here.

From the Daily Beast:

Quote:

What’s a Fox & Friends host to do when they desperately want to push President Donald Trump’s narrative the “both sides” are to blame for Charlottesville, but their guests want to talk about what’s really going on in America right now?

Abby Huntsman found out Wednesday morning, in a segment first spotted by Mediaite, when she tried to start a debate over the statues of Confederate-era slaveholders but found her guests unexpectedly agreeing with each other about how “morally bankrupt” our president has become on the issue of race.

“It’s beyond a monument. This is about hatred. This is about white supremacy,” Wendy Osefo said, representing the left. “As a mother, to hear the president of these United States not sit here and condemn what has happened,” she added of the white supremacist terror attack that killed Heather Heyer, “as a black woman of two black boys, my heart bleeds. This is not talking points. This is personal. We as a nation, as a country, have to do better.”

Huntsman responded by simply echoing Trump—“there are good people on both sides of this debate”—and trying to get her representative from the right, Gianno Caldwell, to address the statue issue instead of responding to what Osefo had said.

He did not comply.

“I come today with a very heavy heart,” Caldwell said, already starting to tear up. “Last night I couldn’t sleep at all because president Trump, our president, has literally betrayed the conscience of our country.”

“The very moral fabric in which we have made progress when it comes to race relations in America. He has failed us,” Caldwell continued, getting increasingly emotional as he spoke.

“And it’s very unfortunate that our president would say things like he did in that press conference yesterday when he says there are good people on the side of the Nazis. ‘They weren’t all Nazis, they weren’t all white supremacists.’ Mr. President, good people don’t pal around with Nazis and white supremacists. Maybe they don’t consider themselves white supremacists and Nazis, but certainly they hold those views.”

“This has become very troubling for anyone to come on any network and defend what President Trump did and said at that press conference yesterday,” he said. “It’s completely lost and [has] the potential to be morally bankrupt.”

“No,” Huntsman could be heard pushing back off screen.

“I’m sorry, no I believe that and I’m being very honest as someone who has been talking about these issues for a very long time, I’m sorry that this is where we are right now. I hope the president learns a lesson from his press conference yesterday. It’s disturbing.”

Acknowledging the “sensitive” nature of the conversation, Huntsman once again tried to get Caldwell to talk about statues, something he had no interest in doing.

By the end of the segment, Caldwell was openly weeping, wiping tears from his eyes as Osefo nodded along in support and started to tear up herself. Hunstman had no idea what she had walked into and no concept of how to handle it.

“Strong emotions there, and, you know, it’s a tough debate,” was all she could muster.
But it wasn’t a debate. For once, both sides on Fox & Friends agreed that President Trump was dead wrong.

↑ Fox ↓

Wed, Aug 16 2017, 11:04 am

Amarante wrote:

Really? Because NYT, WaPo, and every single MSM outlet has covered Antifa. Go ahead and check Google. If you are as widely read as you claim, there is simply no way you would not have heard of Antifa.

Reaching a conclusion "based on facts" requires having some inkling of what those facts are. If you have wrongly confused Antifa with non-violent anti-racist protesters, you don't have command of the facts.

Amarante wrote:

I don't lump every person who is on the left as automatically a member of a monolithic movement. And calling a group anti fascist as a term of opprobrium is laughable to me. I would wear it as a badge of honor since I would assume the opposite is Pro fascist. 😀

When you defend Antifa, you are defending a totalitarian movement with ideas based on Lenin, Stalin, and Mao. Is that really where you want to go?

Claiming ignorance doesn't really work for me here. As I said in an earlier post, I don't think a person who simply disagrees with taking down statues had any business marching with white supremacists. I would not accept the excuse of, "Well, I didn't know they were neo-Nazis and Klansmen" or "I never even heard of those groups."

Likewise, I don't accept the excuse of liberals who claim they never heard of Antifa. If you're going to defend people wearing black balaclavas in August, you might want to check into what they represent.

Amarante wrote:

Tell me the specific groups that are being lumped in with this right wing branding effort at tarnishing those who are against Nazis who were fascists. 😀 I confess this is very confusing that things have been twisted so that any moral person is defending neo Nazis.

No one, moral or otherwise, has defended neo-Nazis or white supremacists. Both the Nazis and Antifa are thoroughly loathesome. Why are you determined to engage in binary thinking? If one group is loathesome, the other group can't also be loathesome?

Amarante wrote:

This is hardly an issue of conservative versus fiery left wing radicals. It is decency versus hatred and bigotry.

Indeed. Which is why it is so disturbing to see people argue that the ideological heirs of Hitler are awful but the ideological heirs of Stalin are . . . not so bad. Disdain for hateful ideologies is not a pizza. If I give a whole pizza's worth of rejection to Nazi ideology, I don't have to give Antifa the box. I can just order more pizza and reject hatred and violence, whatever its underlying ideology.

↑ sushilover ↓

Wed, Aug 16 2017, 11:13 am

Quote:

sushilover wrote:
It can be taken down by voting for a mayor or city council who would promise to take it down. I would not lawlessly pull it down and then call myself an "anti" fascist.

[quote="Amarante"]
The protest was against the lawful removal of the statues by Charlottesville.

There are similar rallies and protests planned for cities which have governments taking them down.

There has only been one instance where protestors removed statues versus the many many protests against the lawful removal.

Baltimore removed all statues last night in order to avoid what happened.sThe protest was against the lawful removal of the statues by Charlottesville.

There are similar rallies and protests planned for cities which have governments taking them down.

There has only been one instance where protestors removed statues versus the many many protests against the lawful removal.

Baltimore removed all statues last night in order to avoid what happened.

(Sorry, I must have missed this response. )
protesting the lawful removal of a statue is perfectly acceptable. I frankly don't care how many protests there are, even if I disagree with them.
Are you saying otherwise?