Science vs Torah. And the winner is....

amother ↓

Wed, Jul 25 2007, 7:24 am

In the Slifkin thread, someone posted this:

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Personally, I'm sick and tired of people putting "science" before the Torah. Seriously, now, what are people thinking?! The Torah is Emes, emes, emes and science is at best misinformed because scientists are athiests and at worst outright lies.

"Science" says the world is millions of years old, we know it to be only 5767. We know the Torah is right because HaShem gave it to us.

"Science" says that man evolved from apes which evolved from monkeys which evolved from something else which evolved from ducks which evolved from slime. The Torah says that we were created with a Tzelem Elokim. We know the Torah is right because HaShem gave it to us.

"Science" says that the earth and the planets revolve around the sun. The Torah tells us that the sun, moon and planets revolve around the earth. We know the Torah is right because HaShem gave it to us.

"Science" tells us that the Pacific Ocean is the largest body of water on the planet. The Torah tells us that the Mediterranean is the largest (hence it's name "yam hagadol"). We know the Torah is right because it comes from the One who created the Oceans.

"Science" tells us that Mt. Everest is the highest point on the Earth. The Torah tells us that Eretz Yisroel is higher than all other lands. The Torah is right because it was written by the One who made all the lands.

"Science" tells us that there are eight planets. Well, that's what they're telling us this year. Last year it was nine. Next year it might be ten. The Torah, on the other hand, tells us that there are six planets in addition to the sun and the moon. We know the Torah is right because it was written by the One who created the sun, moon and planets.

In other words, science is wrong and the Torah is right. I don't see how anyone can follow science when it changes it's position constantly, can't figure out simple things like what's the highest place on earth or the largest body of water, or the number of planets. If they can't follow that, why should I "science" when it says that people came from apes and that the world happened by itself in a happy little accident?

I agree with her and think I can add a few more to the list:

"Science" tells us that lice come from eggs. The Torah tells us that lice do not come from eggs. The Torah wins because it was written by One who created lice and eggs.

"Science" tells us that the moon is incapable of generating it's own light, rather that it reflects light from the sun. The Torah tells us (via the midrash) that the moon can generate it's own light -- just not as much as the sun. The Torah wins because it was written by the One who created the sun and the moon.

"Science" tells us that there could not have been a flood that covered the entire earth. The Torah says there was. The Torah wins because it was written by the One who created floods and the earth.

"Science" tells us that men have walked on the moon. The Torah tells us that above the earth is the Yesod of Aish and that anything that passes through it would burn up. The Torah wins because it was written by the One who created the universe.

"Science" tells us that certain species, such as the dodo, the passenger pigeon and the tasmanian tiger are extinct. Yet, the Torah tells us that no species will ever go extinct (see Minchas HaChinuch). The Torah wins because it was written by the One who created all species of animal.

"Science" tells us that the conquest of Canaan could not have happened when it did because of archaeological evidence. The Torah wins again because it was written by the Author of history.

That makes twelve places, an even dozen, where "science" has fallen flat and gotten things completely wrong. But then again, the scientists are all athiests who are pushing a platform of atheism on the masses, trying to convince them that HaShem doesn't exist and that we're no better than monkeys. Why would anyone ever trust science to begin with?

What strikes me as particularly pernicious, is the fact that there are "frum" Jews who are scientists, who actively persue this stuff and are actively engaged in separating the people of Klal Yisroel from the Torah with their research. Just give it up and study Torah instead.

↑ amother ↓

Wed, Jul 25 2007, 9:13 am

breslov wrote:

Wow.
The torah has certain things written figuratively in it. To say that no one ever walked on the moon because you cant ever go above this earth... is simply ludicris.

Are you calling the Torah ludicrous?

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Some things you are correct about, suchas history and such- torah is correct and history is wrong, because science can't know what happened in the past. But in current things, especially that are observable, to say what we're seeing is fooling us, is being a little bit nutty and extreme.
To say israel is higher- it is higher, but in a different sense.

That's not the way Chazal understood it. They understood it literally.

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The sun, moon, and stars revolving around the earth can very easily mean in a non literal sense- that they're here all for our purpose...

The Rambam brings it all down very literally. I don't think you can read the thrid perek of Hilchos Yisodei HaTorah (where this is all discussed) figuratively at all.

↑ Seraph ↓

Wed, Jul 25 2007, 9:20 am

amother wrote:

breslov wrote:

Wow.
The torah has certain things written figuratively in it. To say that no one ever walked on the moon because you cant ever go above this earth... is simply ludicris.

Are you calling the Torah ludicrous?

No. I'm calling what you wrote ludicrous. The torah doesnt say "John Glenn never walked on the moon." You did, infering from the fact that
it talks about yesod ha'esh.

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That's not the way Chazal understood it. They understood it literally.

Prove it to me. And who said also that its not nishtanu hateva. Its not that science must be wrong and torah must be right. Who said both can't be correct, but we just don't understand how all the time.

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The sun, moon, and stars revolving around the earth can very easily mean in a non literal sense- that they're here all for our purpose...

The Rambam brings it all down very literally. I don't think you can read the thrid perek of Hilchos Yisodei HaTorah (where this is all discussed) figuratively at all.

The rambam isnt "The torah". The rambam is a tzaddik who had perushim on the torah, etc. There were people, even great rabanim that disagreed with the rambam. And I don't beleive tzaddikim are infallible. I do beleive the torah is infallable, but the rambam isnt torah lemoshe misinai.

TzenaRena ↓

Wed, Jul 25 2007, 9:59 am

TzenaRena wrote:

amother wrote:

EstiS wrote:

are you being sarcastic?

for starters, there is a world and there is an earth.
No man, even according to science has walked anywhere outside of the world or universe.
don't confuse the two.

Walking "outside the universe" is clearly an impossibility, as the word "universe" includes everything. Clearly then, when it says that the world is surrounded by the yesod of aish, it's not referring to the universe, since there is no "outside" the universe (any more than there can be a "before time").

This reminds me of the question that some Rabbis had regarding kiddush levana when the astronauts set foot on the moon for the first time, whether we could still continue to say the phrase "just as I cannot touch you - the levana- so may my enemies not be able to touch me to harm.."

The Rebbe gave an explanation, which I'll post later iy"h

Yes, John Glenn walked on the moon, and that got some people worried and started them saying that the Kiddush Levana had to be changed, since now, it was no longer that "just as I am dancing (jumping up) and cannot touch you, so should my enemies not be able to touch me to harm..." because now we CAN touch the moon.

The Rebbe observed a simple obvious fact. Would an elderly Jew saying Kiddush Levana in his siddur here on earth be able to reach out and just touch the moon? So regardless of the advances in science and technology, everything in the Siddur, Chazal and so on remains true, and not contradicted!

Last edited by TzenaRena on Thu, Jul 26 2007, 1:03 pm; edited 1 time in total

↑ amother ↓

Wed, Jul 25 2007, 10:07 am

breslov wrote:

No. I'm calling what you wrote ludicrous. The torah doesnt say "John Glenn never walked on the moon." You did, infering from the fact that
it talks about yesod ha'esh.

Even John Glenn will admit to you that he never walked on the moon.

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That's not the way Chazal understood it. They understood it literally.

breslov wrote:

What's to prove? You think the Rambam wrote his Hilchos Yisodei HaTorah in a figurative sense? I've read it... it sounds fairly straightforward and literal to me. Do you think the Minchas HaChinuch was being figurative when he said that no species goes extinct? I don't think so... his wording and reasoning only make sense if it's literal.

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The sun, moon, and stars revolving around the earth can very easily mean in a non literal sense- that they're here all for our purpose...

The Rambam brings it all down very literally. I don't think you can read the thrid perek of Hilchos Yisodei HaTorah (where this is all discussed) figuratively at all.

What do you mean "the Rambam" isn't Torah?" Of course it is. The things he says are in Hilchos Yisodei HaTorah -- they are the very foundations of the Torah!! Are you prepared to tell the Rambam that the very foundations of the Torah according to him are incorrect?

↑ amother ↓

Wed, Jul 25 2007, 10:09 am

TzenaRena wrote:

amother wrote:

EstiS wrote:

are you being sarcastic?

for starters, there is a world and there is an earth.
No man, even according to science has walked anywhere outside of the world or universe.
don't confuse the two.

What's to explain? Obviously, they never touched the moon. The whole thing was a fake of "science."

↑ Seraph ↓

Wed, Jul 25 2007, 10:49 am

amother wrote:

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The Rambam brings it all down very literally. I don't think you can read the thrid perek of Hilchos Yisodei HaTorah (where this is all discussed) figuratively at all.

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As I said, Rambam is not Torah. It is torah based, but isn't torah. Torah is tanach and mishna and gemara. All other stuff is just perushim on the torah- in my opinion. So I can say that the torah is not incorrect, but that doesnt mean that any rabanim afterwords, rishonim, achronim, etc, are torah and therefore can't make a mistake... There's a reason I started that thread about if a tzaddik is infallible. I have yet to see that tzaddik means infallible and therefore anything he wrote is 10000% emes, even if everything else seems to prove it wrong.

Are you saying the rambam said that the whole yesod of the torah is that the sun revolves around the earth and not visa versa?

Amother, I'm not a beleiver of conspiracy theories. I have no reason to beleive that the "science" world tried to trick us into beleiving that people went up into outer space and stepped on the moon. What would be their point? I beleive what I see in the world unless I have reason to know that its a conspiracy. But no, even the non jews and the scientific world aren't out to "get us" and "Trick us". At worst, they're trying to explain away to themselves the existance of Hashem. But they wouldn't go to the extreme of tricking the whole world into beleiving something that never happened.

Last edited by Seraph on Wed, Jul 25 2007, 11:13 am; edited 4 times in total

↑ amother ↓

Wed, Jul 25 2007, 11:02 am

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breslov wrote:

amother wrote:

Quote:

The sun, moon, and stars revolving around the earth can very easily mean in a non literal sense- that they're here all for our purpose...

The Rambam brings it all down very literally. I don't think you can read the thrid perek of Hilchos Yisodei HaTorah (where this is all discussed) figuratively at all.

[/quote]

I never said that tzadikkim were inafallible. Obviously, if Moshe Rabbeinu could make a mistake, then other tzadikkim could too.

However, the very fact that the Rambam counts this as one of the most essential foundations of the Torah (such as that he put it in the third perek -- right after the perek about the nature of HaShem Himself and Creation - clearly shows that he considers this important and an absolute foundation of the Torah. Is it the only foundation? Of course not -- HaShem's existence is, theoretically, independent of how the universe is set up. But, nonetheless, he still finds it extremely important.

Furthermore, if you consider that he might be wrong in perek gimel, do you think he could be wrong in perek aleph too ch"v? And if not, why not?

In addition, all this about the composition of the solar system is just one point that was made out of a dozen. Let me ask you this -- you say that the Rambam isn't Torah but that the nach (and, presumably chumash) are -- well, when Yehoshua commanded the sun to stand still, it must have been travelling around the earth, no? Otherwise, he would have commanded the earth to stop spinning. That's from nach. The Torah calls the Mediterranian the "yam hagadol." Clearly, no other body of water could be larger, hence the name (you can hardly call something the "yam hagadol" if there is a yet larger yam somewhere else). That's from the Chumash. So, certainly, you accept these, correct?

↑ Seraph ↓

Wed, Jul 25 2007, 11:22 am

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I never said that tzadikkim were inafallible. Obviously, if Moshe Rabbeinu could make a mistake, then other tzadikkim could too.

However, the very fact that the Rambam counts this as one of the most essential foundations of the Torah (such as that he put it in the third perek -- right after the perek about the nature of HaShem Himself and Creation - clearly shows that he considers this important and an absolute foundation of the Torah. Is it the only foundation? Of course not -- HaShem's existence is, theoretically, independent of how the universe is set up. But, nonetheless, he still finds it extremely important.

Furthermore, if you consider that he might be wrong in perek gimel, do you think he could be wrong in perek aleph too ch"v? And if not, why not?

I never learned rambam's sefer, so I cant debate regarding this. If I read it inside, maybe I'd be able to shed some light on the matter regarding this discussion. However, its not a sefer I have available at home, so I can't go look it up right now either.
I don't know why he considers the stars and moon and sun revolving around the earth as one of the yisodei haemuna, so I can't discuss that further.

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In addition, all this about the composition of the solar system is just one point that was made out of a dozen.

I don't disagree with everything you wrote- the ones I disagreed with, I commented on. But not all of the things I disagreed with.

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Let me ask you this -- you say that the Rambam isn't Torah but that the nach (and, presumably chumash) are -- well, when Yehoshua commanded the sun to stand still, it must have been travelling around the earth, no? Otherwise, he would have commanded the earth to stop spinning. That's from nach. The Torah calls the Mediterranian the "yam hagadol." Clearly, no other body of water could be larger, hence the name (you can hardly call something the "yam hagadol" if there is a yet larger yam somewhere else). That's from the Chumash. So, certainly, you accept these, correct?

Well for these cases, its all relative. When yehoshua commanded the sun to stand still- yes, the earth stopped spinning, and therefore, it appeared that the sun stood still in the sky. Yehoshua wasn't going to command "earth stop moving" because that itself wasn't a nes that the whole world/all bnei yisrael would be able to verify. The way they experienced this neis was by them not seeing the sun advance.
The torah calls the mediteranean yam hagadol, because there is yam hamelach, yam kineret, yam suf, and the mediteranean- those are the seas that are near E'y, and since the mediteranean is the biggest, it makes sense to call it the "yam hagadol".
And if you want a deeper more torahdig answer- I learned (in my torah class in sem, not from some heebeegeebee class) that there used to be no mediteranean sea- there used to be a civilization there, and then something happened (don't remember exactly the cause) but the atlantic ocean came and broke through the rocks of gibralter and filled the entire mediteranean "valley" and the water came all the way up to where is now the border of israel- the mediteranean shore.
So the reason why the mediteranean is called the yam hagadol is because its part of the atlantic, the BIG yam hagadol!!

↑ amother ↓

Wed, Jul 25 2007, 11:37 am

breslov wrote:

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You can look up the Rambam here: http://www.mechon-mamre.org/i/1103.htm

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In addition, all this about the composition of the solar system is just one point that was made out of a dozen.

I don't disagree with everything you wrote- the ones I disagreed with, I commented on. But not all of the things I disagreed with.

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I find your answer regarding Yehoshua to be totally unconvincing. The sefer Yehoshua was written for the Yidden, not for the world. It's a big stretch to say that Yehoshua wrote that the sun should stop so that non-Jews would be able to understand it, and, at the same time, obscuring the meaning from the Jews for whom the book _was_ written.

Your answer regarding the Mediterranian is also unconvincing. Even if I grant you that "Yam HaGadol" includes the Atlantic (something I'm not prepared to do, but for the sake of argument), "science" will still tell you that the Pacific is bigger than the Atlantic. So "science" is _still_ wrong.

I don't understand why you are definding those who are trying to rip us apart from our emunah and from the Torah.

↑ amother ↓

Wed, Jul 25 2007, 12:05 pm

faigie wrote:

"Even John Glenn will admit to you that he never walked on the moon. "

it wasnt john glenn who stepped onto the moons surface, it was Aldin and Armstrong..............

Agreed. I wasn't the one who brought up John Glenn. It's Aldrin and Armstrong (and ten others from later Apollo missions) who claim to have walked on the moon.

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-there is PLENTY of scientific evidence of a worldwide flood.

Then why don't scientists believe in the Mabul?

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- and the earth is NOT the center of our solar system. though that was the theory in ancient times. in fact, though im not up to it yet, im 99% sure sefer yitzera does agree with present day astronomy.

And yet the Rambam disagrees with you and maintains that the geocentric model is a pillar of our faith. I have no doubt that you are learned and scholarly, but, no offense, between you and the Rambam, I'll go with the Rambam on this one.

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as to the number of plants, I think the chachamim may be referring to those plantes that affect mazal only. the rest wouldnt hold any interest for them

But that's not what it says. The Rambam, in listing off the planets, doesn't indicate that there are others.

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as for semesh b'givon dome!" yehoshua needed more sunlight, period. that why he told the sun to stop moving across the sky. and indeed it did.

Right! And the _point_ is that the SUN MOVES and THE EARTH DOESN'T!