Tell me about Dallas or Houston

amother

↑ Chartreuse

Thu, Mar 02 2017, 10:41 am

amother wrote:

This is definitely true. The summers are brutal, and many families go to NY for part of it if they can.

However, one could say the same about the winters in Toronto. It's a consideration, but usually not a deal breaker if the community is really for you.

The freeways have a very high speed limit because Texas is a huge state! If the limit was 60 mph, you'd never get anywhere!

Of course, just pointing out factors to keep in mind. I know I can't live in such a hot place because I get heat headaches and rashes but most people can deal with that ...

amother

↑ Navy

Thu, Mar 02 2017, 10:48 am

amother wrote:

Thank you for that!

In terms of the modern/yeshivish demographic, can you describe a little more - this is important to me. I'm looking for a place with a strong RWMO presence. Meaning that if you're distinctly not yeshivish but also far from what they call LWMO, you have people that you fit right in with. I'm happy being friends with both yeshivish and LWMO people but I also want to be in a place where there are others who are similar to me just for the sake of not being in a category by myself, know what I mean? Like where I live right now there is basically a clear split, your choice is to be totally MO or totally yeshivish and if you're somewhere in middle everyone is happy to be your friend but you don't actually have that feeling of fitting in anywhere and I feel awkward like that. To the MO people I'm the frummy, and to the yeshivish people I'm the modern one, and I can't figure out where to place my kids in school!

The pool - may seem like a silly detail to nitpick on and it probably won't be a deciding factor but I like to know - when I've been in places where people have pools in their house, they're little, for hanging around and having fun. I want a serious olympic or half-size pool where I can drill laps. It feels silly asking about this at this stage of looking for a community but I have a hard time staying in shape and swimming is the only exercise I don't hate and can do without feeling like I'm killing myself. Also in NY I do a ton of walking because that's how congested cities work, but my understanding is that out of town you need to drive to get anywhere. Here if I need more exercise I can just get off the subway at an earlier stop and walk more, and if I'm tired on the way back I just hop onto the subway sooner.

As to whether you'd fit in, I really really believe there are all types there. My sister works in the school, and her students have run the gamut from kollel families to JPF families with tv's, to more modern. Some moms cover their hair fully and wear stockings in the summer, some cover with no stockings, some don't cover fully. Sounds so kitchy but they all really get along so well, and no one has any prerequisites for you to be friends with them. It's great. No one will think of you as the modern one or the frum one.

The pool issue isn't nit picky at all if it's important to you. The wealthier people have larger pools, and I know in the past my sister has just paid someone a small fee to use their pool in the morning, but I can find out from her if there's a more permanent option for someone who's more of a serious swimmer.

When we were there, we did walk to the major grocery store called Tom Thumb to get out a bit. It was a 15 minute walk. It's likely not an option for huge grocery shops because you'd need to get the groceries home, but it is an option if you're running out for milk and eggs and want a nice walk with the baby.

Overall though, it's a pretty spread out city so a car is definitely a must over there

amother

↑ Mint ↓

Thu, Mar 02 2017, 11:05 am

I could have written almost the identical post to amother above and it would be about Houston. Just two things a little different.

1. Yeshievish is a hard word to use - especially nowadays. There are a few kollel couples, and a few families that moved down for the kollel and are now working, and a handful of others like that. There are many baalei teshuva and a lot of people who maybe went to yeshiva/bais yaakov but moved out-of-town because they didn't want to conform to certain standards on the East Coast. But aside for the kollel couples there are not many men that only wear white shirts, or women who always wear stockings/socks even with long skirts. So I'm not sure if you would describe many of the people as yeshievish (btw I have no idea how to spell that word).

2. Houston would not be described as an aesthetically pleasing city at all. There are plenty of parks, nice areas that you can find and I believe the city is trying to beautify certain areas...but it is one of the largest cities in the country and it definitely feels like it. There are tons of highways, office buildings, storefronts - everywhere. I happen to love the city (I've lived here for many, many years) but not because it's a pretty place to live.

Tuition here is very high - which I think is quite normal once you move out of town. Elementary school runs from about $7500-$13,000 depending on the grade.
Housing is affordable (although not crazy cheap like it used to be). Groceries are quite cheap (kosher chicken/meat is a little more than NY, but other food is much cheaper), health ins is expensive, property taxes are high but not crazy, and there is no state/city income tax.
Does the cost of living come out cheaper? - maybe not by much, but I always say it's more a quality of life change than a cost of living change.
I think most fathers work shorter hours and have time to spend with their families. Kids are outside all afternoon (the neighborhood spans a couple of blocks so everyone is near each other) and mostly everyone knows each other.

If you're looking for a laid back out of town community I think it's a good fit. If you want something more yeshievish, I'm not sure. Really your best bet is to come visit for a Shabbos.

amother

↑ Goldenrod ↓

Thu, Mar 02 2017, 11:32 am

Yes, laid back is what I'm looking for, NOT yeshivish.
It's quite far to go for Shabbos until we're really ready to make a near-final decision. Looking to do as much narrowing down as possible early in the process.
Is there anything more suburban in the area? Coming from NY I'd really love something less ugly-city.

7500-13000 is not crazy expensive tuition. 7500 is less than I'm paying now while 13000 is significantly more but not outrageously so especially if you don't have a lot of kids (if I wanted to send to a more modern school near where I live now we'd be talking closer to 20,000).

What you said about cost of living not being much cheaper makes me really wonder... people always suggest that moving out of NY is the best way to make life affordable but I'm assuming you have lower salaries and with a similar cost of living how does that make sense? What are rents like? Is there public transportation?

Does being more laid back mean that there are less of those expenses that are not essential but you end up going for in a place like NY? Like are you able to wear cheaper clothing without feeling like a shlump, or pay less for things like after-school activities? Do people take less vacations and stuff?

Do Dallas or Houston have free/affordable cultural things to do? In NY many museums have free days as does the Bronx Zoo, and some places are "suggested admission" such as the Metropolitan Museum and the Museum of Natural History, and there are lots of great public parks, and all of these things are easily accessible by public transportation. We need to get out of NY for many reasons but that's something I'll miss and I wonder how other places compare.

amother

↑ Mistyrose ↓

Thu, Mar 02 2017, 11:54 am

amother wrote:

What you said about cost of living not being much cheaper makes me really wonder... people always suggest that moving out of NY is the best way to make life affordable but I'm assuming you have lower salaries and with a similar cost of living how does that make sense? What are rents like? Is there public transportation?

Does being more laid back mean that there are less of those expenses that are not essential but you end up going for in a place like NY? Like are you able to wear cheaper clothing without feeling like a shlump, or pay less for things like after-school activities? Do people take less vacations and stuff?

.

The answer to your question is YES. You can wear cheaper clothing and not feel like a shlomp. In fact, if you show up in a $3000 wig and designer clothing, people will probably think you're crazy for spending that money on clothing, even the wealthier people. And NO ONE dresses their kids like mini runway models for a zillion dollars. No one. They dress nice but normal, and in NY they'd probably be considered not with it. But who cares?

amother

↑ Mint ↓

Thu, Mar 02 2017, 12:56 pm

The neighborhood itself is well kept up and nice looking. The homes are very close together, no large sprawling yards. There is a park in the neighborhood that on Shabbos is filled with families. The nicer suburban communities are further out from the city where there is no frum presence at all. But if you want to go to a park, you have literally a hundred to choose from within a 20 minute drive.
I guess cost of living is all relative. If someone is moving from NY that was on Medicaid, food stamps, Section 8... most of that is not available here because the income limits are so much lower. And with tuition - if you're used to MO tuition prices, yes it's cheap. If you're used to Brooklyn $5000 a kid tuition, it's expensive.

There is definitely much less of an emphasis on gashmiyus here. There are a few families that drive their fancy cars and go on their fancy trips - but it is definitely not the norm. And as far as clothing Target, Old Navy... are perfectly acceptable and even the "rich" people buy clothing there.

I rarely ever spend money entertaining my kids. As I said, there are many parks, you can find some sort of free event almost every Sunday or we just have friends over. When it's hot it is a bit more challenging, but then we'll usually just spend hours by the pool.

You will absolutely need a car, probably even two. Public transportation is mostly worthless for a family here.

Rent runs about $1500-1800 for a 3 bedroom house. Most people that need larger than that usually end up buying because it comes out cheaper. A 4-5 bedroom house goes for about $250,000-300,000. There is a new development of houses going up in the middle of the neighborhood (where there was empty land for years). Those houses are larger and will probably be "fancier" but will cost you around $350,000 and up starting at 3,000 sq ft.

amother

↑ Goldenrod ↓

Thu, Mar 02 2017, 1:01 pm

OMG I was anticipating MUCH lower rent! No wonder you say COL is similar to NY! Yikes. Never mind then Sad

I thought the rent getting slashed in half makes the rest worth it. You said 3br house, though - are there any apartment buildings or multiple-family houses in the frum area? I don't need a private house and 2 bedrooms would be good enough if they're not too small to include play/study areas.

BTW yes I'm comparing school costs with more modern options. Ideally I want middle-of-the-road not very MO but definitely not your $5000 Boro Park school. So those run around 10k+ in NY. The type of MO where they want their kids to get early admissions to ivy league universities are in the 20k range but that's not what I'm looking for. I just want a nice down-to-earth life in every way from community to dress to schools.

amother

Bisque ↓

Thu, Mar 02 2017, 1:04 pm

Been to Houston.

My summary is that there are a bunch of yeshivish people pretending to be modern with a nice shirt but they are still yeshivish. People are not friendly. You can be there for an entire year and nobody cares if you're alone for yom tov.

Chabad isn't much different a noisy bunch that is cliquey. People drunk in the back of shul so you can't hear davening.

Houston itself is high traffic and people there drive more insanely than in New York. To get anything you need kosher is one way and walmart the other way and you're in time trouble if you forget one item.

Vegetables are cheap. Yay Mexico.

Don't move there.

The End.

amother

↑ Mint ↓

Thu, Mar 02 2017, 1:10 pm

There is one apt building in the neighborhood, but a majority of the residents are not Jewish, and quite low-class. I think rent on a 2 bedroom/2 bath apt is about $1200-1300

That's why if you buy a small house (2/3 bedroom) for $150,000 - $175,000 a 30-yr mortgage is cheaper than rent (but you need a down payment). And those houses are very hard to come by now because they're snatched up quickly by people who want to rent them out.

Housing costs have gone up a ton over the past few years. My home is probably worth close to $100,000 more than what I bought it for several years ago. As with any neighborhood, when frum people move in en masse people catch on and prices go up.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news Sad

amother

↑ Mint ↓

Thu, Mar 02 2017, 1:15 pm

Quote:

My summary is that there are a bunch of yeshivish people pretending to be modern with a nice shirt but they are still yeshivish. People are not friendly. You can be there for an entire year and nobody cares if you're alone for yom tov.

Sorry you had a bad experience here. Sad

I actually have the exact opposite impression. I think a lot of people are pretending to be yeshivish but are actually more "modern". But all these labels are actually quite ridiculous, you just need to find a place where you fit in - which obviously Houston didn't work for you.

And I think that as long as you make an effort to go out and meet people, everyone is very friendly. I am not a social person by nature and I still think people are super-nice here.

I hope you find/found your place somewhere and I wish you only happiness.

amother

Aubergine ↓

Thu, Mar 02 2017, 1:15 pm

amother wrote:

I'm from Houston, what else would you like to know?
I've never been to Dallas, but Houston is quite urban - I would have guessed more than Dallas.

Hi, fellow Houston-ite!

I beg to differ, I would hardly call Houston "urban"... Or I guess it depends what you mean by that word. It's like a giant parking lot. Ugly and very spacious and yes there is greenery by virtue of the constant heat and humidity, but it's really not a pretty city. I sometimes think of our area at least (Fondren area where the frum people live) like a suburban slum.

So I would agree with urban maybe in the negative (lots of parking lots) but not the positive (there's not much happening energy, and you need to drive far to get anywhere because it's so spread out).

amother

↑ Aubergine ↓

Thu, Mar 02 2017, 1:22 pm

amother wrote:

Not gonna comment on the social aspect, but I would agree about the driving and the grocery shopping in all different stores that are far from each other. A weekly shopping requires multiple destinations, and most places are at least a 15 minute drive... There is hardly anywhere I can go that my baby/toddler won't fall asleep in the car and then not nap at home...

If you are not a SAHM, or if you have a housekeeper and just leave your baby home when you go shopping, that aspect of things may not be such an issue for you. But if you live in NY and you're used to just heading out with your little kids to pick up some groceries, you might find that this an adjustment.

amother

↑ Aubergine ↓

Thu, Mar 02 2017, 1:36 pm

amother wrote:

Quote:

So I would agree with urban maybe in the negative (lots of parking lots) but not the positive (there's not much happening energy, and you need to drive far to get anywhere because it's so spread out).

Yes, I did actually mean it in the negative sense Very Happy

which you can see from my later posts.
As far as "culture". There is plenty of that downtown, but as you said it's a far drive and I'm not into that stuff so it's not really on my radar.

Oh yes I see we agree.

And I agree with you about the cultural stuff... somehow it just seems really far from our neck of the woods. I listen to Houston Public Radio and they're always talking about the active arts scene but I'm not feeling it. I did once go to the museum of fine arts and was surprised how easy the drive and parking were. And it was beautiful there.

If there are a lot of places to go with kids, I'm not hooked up. This place is REALLY not New York. The children's museum downtown gets insanely crowded. There's a new one in Sugarland that's great for little kids. I feel like they're not taking bigger families into account because you can't bring kids over 2 into the under 2 area. (Is that unusual? In my previous city it wasn't like that.) But good activities for little kids of all ages, you just can't go the under-2 area if you're one adult alone and have bigger kids too. All in all my experience here at least is that it's not culturally rich.

amother

↑ Aubergine ↓

Thu, Mar 02 2017, 1:40 pm

amother wrote:

I hate hot, I hate cold, but dry heat may be better than humid heat, I wouldn't know because I come from NY which tends to be humid when it's hot. Anyway my strategy is that if we end up in Texas I'll enjoy the warmth when friends in NY are freezing, and then stay indoors or in-car with AC blasting and the amount I save in not paying NY rent can cover the electricity LOL

Also I can easily envision going back to NY for the summers because that seems to be the ideal way to keep up connection with relatives here.

Goldenrod I hate to keep being a downer, and a lot of people do love it here, but you sound like you might be a bit optimistic about the weather here in Houston!

It's very humid. And there are some times of the year when you can be pleasantly warm while NYers are freezing, but the part where it's uncomfortably hot lasts about 8 months of the year... So even if you go to NY for six weeks every summer, it's mostly summer here... At least this year.

It seems to me that the people here who really love it here LIKE the heat. You can't really avoid the heat here. But some people really do like it.

amother

↑ Mistyrose

Thu, Mar 02 2017, 1:40 pm

amother wrote:

When you talk of the more right wing school in Dallas, what does that mean? How much more left-wing is the less right wing school?

It's starting to sound like maybe this was only wishful thinking. If rent on a 2-bedroom apartment in a low-class building is 1500, why on earth did OU supposedly recommend it as one of the best places for affordable Jewish living?!

The modern school (I didn't say left wing! Because to me that means democrat/republican lol) is very modern with kids and parents ranging from frum to driving on shabbos.

The plain school has a range of uber yeshivish to kids whose parents don't cover their hair, but all are shomer shabbos. It's a growth oriented school. They don't have rules like no nail polish, no tv, but it's definitely a growth oriented place. Girls who graduated the school have gone to places like michlala and bjj, and in between. They've gone on to be teachers and kollel wives in Lakewood, and doctors and lawyers. It's a range.

amother

↑ Bisque

Thu, Mar 02 2017, 1:44 pm

amother wrote:

Don't live in New York. Just comparing to what people are used to hearing. Other places out of town also have closer shopping that you don't need a highway to get to. Being in college full time and working makes one just as exhausted running back and forth.