What are the sources and reasons for being shomer negiah??

↑ shalhevet ↓

Mon, Jun 18 2007, 6:27 am

Ruchel wrote:

Don't feel bad. You could be Ffb Mo and have the same problem. There is no real solution. I used to feel extra about doing it, then when I discovered my frum non modern cousins also insisted on it, I stopped feeling (so) bad.

The solution is to politely but firmly to say no. A person has rights as to who will touch them and who won't.

When someone does something to you that you don't want them to, do you just passively let them and say there is no solution? If someone was sneezing away would you let them give you and/or your dd a big hug? Even if they would get offended?

Please don't bring me 'proofs' from what people do, but from what the Shulchan Aruch says.

↑ Ruchel ↓

Mon, Jun 18 2007, 6:39 am

Quote:

The solution is to politely but firmly to say no.

What if they don't ask me?

Quote:

When someone does something to you that you don't want them to, do you just passively let them and say there is no solution? If someone was sneezing away would you let them give you and/or your dd a big hug? Even if they would get offended?

No, here it wouldn't offend them in this case, they would get it.

The worst is with old people, I really don't want to hurt them, who am I to show them I'm frummer, especially if I am NOT?
I asked the question and the answer I got was that I should say hello without coming closer, but then people come. So I could shake hands, but this doesn't work for family, and the least worse solution is to let them kiss you if they want but you just make a kiss sound without kissing them.
I'm lazy but I'm sure I can find a quote if you want.

Anyway, I'm not going to bring up the shulchan aruch when the person is secular or on contrary much frummer.

↑ Ruchel ↓

Mon, Jun 18 2007, 6:46 am

About talking to girls, I found a very surprising quote. To someone asking if he can have a girlfriend, R' Shmuel Franck answered

Quote:

oui vous pouvez avoir une copine a condition d'etre assez fort et de pouvoir respecter la Halha.

Yes you can if you are strong enough to keep the halachot.

For background, R' Franck "studied at Montreux yeshiva then at Alon Shvut. He studied to become a teach at Machon Hertzog. He teaught at Montreux and Etz Haim in St Maur, now he has been rav at Yeshivat Hesder of Kohav Yaakov for 12 years."

↑ creativemommyto3 ↓

Mon, Jun 18 2007, 7:06 am

yeah , but most ppl can't. That is probably why he said it. Just so the amothers on this page should know, this thread was started to find out the reasons for shomer negiah, not to blame the OP of the other thread. This thread is totally a halachic discussion , not a bashing discussion.

↑ shalhevet

Mon, Jun 18 2007, 7:32 am

Ruchel wrote:

About talking to girls, I found a very surprising quote. To someone asking if he can have a girlfriend, R' Shmuel Franck answered

Quote:

oui vous pouvez avoir une copine a condition d'etre assez fort et de pouvoir respecter la Halha.

These are all MO yeshivos. Alon Shvut is very left wing MO.

I have never heard any rav give such a 'psak'. Pirkei Avos teaches us that someone should never believe in himself until the day of death.

Someone is not considered praiseworthy to put himself in a position of testing himself. אל תאמין בעצמך עד יום מותו

↑ Ruchel ↓

Mon, Jun 18 2007, 7:47 am

I can't say I know these yeshivos, but Montreux and St Maur are mainstream Orthodox (well, were in the case of Montreux who made alia like 30 years ago). Nothing special about them. I have never heard such a psak either and wouldn't encourage such a behaviour personally at all. But since he is on a halachically valid site, I can't say this rabbi is wrong, just not my thing.

↑ amother ↓

Wed, Jun 20 2007, 2:10 pm

There most definetely is. In fact , my therapist/rebbetzin says that kids who go to yeshiva and don't keep it usually know that they are doing wrong but can't help themselves.

↑ Ruchel ↓

Wed, Jun 20 2007, 2:28 pm

Motek wrote:

healthymama wrote:

Pity that there isn't a similar halacha for little boys then. Oh, well.

meaning? men and boys?

thats what she meant

↑ Ruchel ↓

Wed, Jun 20 2007, 2:30 pm

amother wrote:

There most definetely is. In fact , my therapist/rebbetzin says that kids who go to yeshiva and don't keep it usually know that they are doing wrong but can't help themselves.

I agree that those who go to yeshiva are old and frum enough to know (contrary to some jewish schools). But I don't buy the can't help themselves. Hashem doesn't ask us to do things that are too hard for us. Truth is, when you REALLY want enough, you CAN do it. But you have to want a lot.

↑ Motek ↓

Wed, Jun 20 2007, 3:08 pm

no similar halacha? a pity? Confused

If you're correct ruchel in that is what she meant, like huh? no similar halacha not to engage in homosexual behavior? a pity that G-d didn't think of it?

↑ Ruchel ↓

Wed, Jun 20 2007, 3:19 pm

This is how I get it:
There is halacha against a man touching a woman and against them having relations

There is halacha against a man having relations with a man, but NOT against just touching, and if men couldn't touch, it would make it easier for them not to have relations.

↑ Motek ↓

Wed, Jun 20 2007, 3:51 pm

Ruchel wrote:

There is halacha against a man having relations with a man, but NOT against just touching, and if men couldn't touch, it would make it easier for them not to have relations.

Jews are not chashud (suspect) regarding homosexual behavior, whereas gentiles are. According to halacha, men can sleep in the same bed. Why? Because Jews generally do not engage in deviant behavior. If I remember correctly though, due to the overt immoral behavior of the gentiles around us, we need to be more circumspect.

↑ Ruchel ↓

Wed, Jun 20 2007, 4:04 pm

This rings a bell but I can't tell you where I read or hear it, if it was in French or in English... pregnancy brain still there Exploding anger

Why are gentiles more suspected though?

Quote:

due to the overt immoral behavior of the gentiles around us, we need to be more circumspect.

because it could influence Jews, or you mean a Jew and a [gentile] who are friends and the Jew has to be careful?

↑ healthymama

Wed, Jun 20 2007, 4:07 pm

Sorry if I confused you all.

I was pretty disgusted with the post that suggested that the explanations for having this halacha is to prevent women from getting molested, as it seemed to be connected to a separate thread in which a person described getting molested and then some insensitive and anonymous posters suggested that this happened as a lesson/punishment from Hashem to be shomer negiah. So after that anonymous comment appeared on this thread, I commented that if negiah is to protect people from being molested, there should be negiah halachos for both genders, not only women. I certainly don't think that the purpose of negiah rules is to protect people from being molested.

↑ creativemommyto3

Wed, Jun 20 2007, 10:12 pm

The ONLY way that this thread is related to that one is the fact that I was just curious at the reasons that G-d made the halachos. Not to say that it was just to protect someone from being molested.

Just to note, a lot of the harshness could have been avoided had the OP said the whole story, like her backround too. I noticed that many ppl right away think that it is always the guys fault in everything on this site. Even if it was in that case. Sometimes I wonder if this is a men bashing site. How was anybody to know that she wasn't some kind of weirdo who was just looking for ammunition to hurt some guy? There was no way of us knowing that even from a couple of posts.

If you ask me, I was disgusted by the whole thing period. That parents should encourage their child to have a boyfriend and to not tell her what can happen if they touch. What

↑ amother

Thu, Jun 21 2007, 4:15 am

healthymama wrote:

I had hoped it was understood I was being sarcastic. I in no way meant what I wrote to be taken at face value. For that I apologize.

↑ Motek ↓

Sun, Jun 24 2007, 1:04 pm

Ruchel wrote:

Why are gentiles more suspected though?

Because they do these things. For example, a gentile girl, aged 3 and over, is regarded by halacha as a non-virgin.

Quote:

due to the overt immoral behavior of the gentiles around us, we need to be more circumspect.

I'd have to check to find out the halachos precisely, but from what I remember (and this is what I meant) Jews need to be more stringent today in how they conduct themselves because the prevailing atmosphere of immorality has an effect on us. So that centuries ago it was halachically okay for a mother and son to sleep together without clothes (as was customary) to quite an advanced age for the son (was it 9? don't remember. Same for father and daughter) whereas hearing this today, we recoil in horror and it's not done anymore.

↑ Ruchel ↓

Sun, Jun 24 2007, 1:19 pm

Is it why a convert cannot marry a Cohen? or even someone converted at birth is not ok?

Quote:

centuries ago it was halachically okay for a mother and son to sleep together without clothes (as was customary) to quite an advanced age for the son (was it 9? don't remember. Same for father and daughter) whereas hearing this today, we recoil in horror and it's not done anymore.

ewww. Was it really common? why not sleep with clothes on??