Chag HaAtzmaut Sameach

↑ Chayalle ↓

Fri, May 13 2016, 8:32 am

mo5 wrote:

It is a great miracle.
Chayelle shared some thoughts as to why people wouldn't be 'celebrating'

here's some more background as to why people don't celebrate (aside from the halachic problem of sefira- which is a big one!)
(Borrowed from an article online) "The state was being founded by secular- anti religious people with a deliberate anti religious agenda. Many G-d fearing Jews lost or gave up being religious because of Zionism."

"until Zionism it was clear that being Jewish meant keeping Torah laws, whoever left the practice of Judaism was clearly making a statement that he doesn’t want to remain part of the Jewish people and it was clear that there was no alternative to it. Zionsim came and said that being Jewish doesn’t consist in practicing Torah but rather the Jewish nation is a nation like any other, and so being Jewish is being nationalist. If you speak Hebrew, live in Israel and celebrate independence day you’re a good"

Now that there are facts on the ground of course we support the economy and security etc of the millions of Jews living there- but it doesn't change the fact that the government was founded by those who were against Torah and Mitzva and that attitude continues to affect us today. So we can support Israel but not celebrate this 'date' (it's not the victory date either- rather end of mandate and Ben gurions declaration)

Well said.

In fact, there were those among the founders of the state of Israel who would have been willing to found the state in another location, like Uganda. They did not necessarily believe in Kedushat Haaretz, even. There are those in Israel who study Tanach purely as an academic subject, not as a belief that Torah is meant to be studied Lilmod Ulilamed Lishmor V'laasos. This is what Zionism represents to many Chareidi people - the downgrading of the Torah CH"V - and that is sad and not something to celebrate.

As someone else posted, eilu v'eilu....

amother

↑ Rose

Fri, May 13 2016, 9:04 am

water_bear88 wrote:

She could always call it a "moed", which is a proper term for it as used in the official DL greeting for the day. It's Sefirah- can we all stop the bashing, please?

Except no one actually says that.

I'm not trying to bash, just point out that sometimes a person who thinks he is open minded can still have such insular viewpoints as to be offensive or condescending. To me, the statement implied that we in Israel who speak colloquially (and are breaking our teeth to be part of the nes that is the revival of the Hebrew language, and, I'm sorry I have to say it, daily make sacrifices for the entire Jewish people as a whole) are somehow less faithful to the Torah than the people who distance themselves from this day on any level. Maybe it was intended as a cutesy statement, but it was ignorant and it hurt me.

↑ PinkFridge ↓

Fri, May 13 2016, 9:05 am

Chayalle wrote:

This is probably close to what I think. And yet...if I can have warm fuzzies on July 4 because of the malchus shel chesed I live in, and gratitude for it being a haven for my family 130 and 85 years ago, kal v'chomer (lehavidil?) should 5 Iyar be a day of reflection, and gratitude, and love for its inhabitants and yes, founders (even the misguided ones). Which doesn't mean I would change my davening or other hanhagos.
My sig line probably says it all...

↑ Chayalle ↓

Fri, May 13 2016, 9:09 am

amother wrote:

It was not intended as a cutesy statement. Nor was it ignorant. It is simply my belief and Hashkafa, and I'm sorry if that hurts you.

↑ Marion

Fri, May 13 2016, 9:25 am

PinkFridge wrote:

Assuming you are referring to the quote of Yosef Begun, I assume you know he DID make it to Israel, several years ago. I had the honour of having him as a guest at the very first seder I made in Jerusalem, a mere 8 weeks after my own aliyah...

↑ PinkFridge

Fri, May 13 2016, 9:41 am

Marion wrote:

Wow!
About the seder, that is. I know he made it to E"Y, it was in the book the quote's from. But isn't the quote amazing? Even someone born and bred in E"Y should appreciate the sentiments.

Peanut2

Fri, May 13 2016, 9:45 am

mo5 wrote:

This is not historically accurate at all.

↑ 5mom ↓

Fri, May 13 2016, 10:04 am

Chayalle wrote:

You see the founding of the state in exclusively human terms, and judge according to (an exaggertatedly wrong) view of the human actors.

Zionists see the founding of the state as Yad Hashem.

↑ Chayalle ↓

Fri, May 13 2016, 10:37 am

5mom wrote:

You see the founding of the state in exclusively human terms, and judge according to (an exaggertatedly wrong) view of the human actors.

Zionists see the founding of the state as Yad Hashem.

Anti-Zionists most definitely see the Yad Hashem in the founding of the state. See my post in this thread about the Brisker Rav.

They just don't discount the fact that they are unhappy with the founders.

(Reminds me of a story of a secular young man who came to one of the Rebbes of Gur to receive a blessing that he get an army exemption. The Rebbe blessed him that the Army doctors be as disappointed with him as the Rebbe....)

In what way is my POV exaggerated and wrong (other than that it differs from other POV's)?

↑ 5mom ↓

Fri, May 13 2016, 10:51 am

Chayalle wrote:

I thought I was clear. Zionism was far from the only movement that interested Jews in Europe. Jews were leaving religion in droves.

There were religious Jews supporting Zionism from the start.

Not all Zionists were antireligious.

But even if you were right, why would it matter?

Yehoshua bin Nun came into Israel with an army. His secret service made contact with a rather unsavory local harlot who helped them into the land. That's how Hashem operates.

↑ Chayalle ↓

Fri, May 13 2016, 10:58 am

Agree with all four of your points above.

Why does it matter that the founders of the state were irreligious, so Chareidim are opposed to them? Yehoshua made contact with Rachav thru his spies, but according to midrashim I learned, she subsequently became a giyores and married Yehoshua.

The founders of the State of Israel never became religious, and in fact they promoted values that were anti-religious.

↑ Chayalle ↓

Fri, May 13 2016, 11:07 am

5mom wrote:

The state of Israel is a haven for Jews and the center of Torah worldwide. That doesn't deserve acknowledgement??

That is at the center of this discussion is it not? Eilu V'Eilu - some Rabbanim are of the opinion that it does...and some are not. It's not a question for me to answer. I can say, though, what I've learned about why my Rabbanim are of the opinion not to change the Tefillah. I can respect Rabbanim who are of other opinions, even if I don't follow their Shittah.

↑ 5mom

Fri, May 13 2016, 11:21 am

Chayalle wrote:

So you're a Zionist, you're just unsure about Hallel. Interesting. Can you at least bring yourself to say tehillim in thanks? We say פרק קז. Worth reading in light of history.

↑ Chayalle ↓

Fri, May 13 2016, 11:33 am

5mom wrote:

So you're a Zionist, you're just unsure about Hallel. Interesting. Can you at least bring yourself to say tehillim in thanks? We say פרק קז. Worth reading in light of history.

I don't know if I'm a Zionist or not depends on how that's defined.....I certainly say "V'Sechezenah Eineinu B'Shuvcha L'Tzion Brachamim" and I pray for the wellfare of E"Y and all my brothers and sisters there.

I could certainly say Tehillim. Thanks for the suggestion of Perek.

ETA: Wow! Fascinating, and especially since that Perek definitely references what I have been taught about this day and have posted here, too....so interesting that this is the Perek you say.

Last edited by Chayalle on Fri, May 13 2016, 11:39 am; edited 1 time in total

↑ m in Israel ↓

Fri, May 13 2016, 11:39 am

moonstone wrote:

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Oh, I can envision it. But I can't wrap my head around it. It's a point of view that I find strange, antiquated and, frankly, offensive.

I feel like I am in a twilight zone. Are you saying you find it offensive for a frum Jew to want to live in Eretz Yisroel???? Our desire to return to our land is certainly not strange and antiquated -- I am not even sure what you mean by "antiquated". I'm sure you are familiar with the famous apocryphal story about Napoleon when he observed Jews morning on Tisha B'Av -- "if they can cry like that about a building that was destroyed so long ago, they will certainly eventually rebuild it." Our "antiquated" love for this land is a big part of why it is ours today. I think the reason I am so surprised at your comment is that I am truly not aware of ANY group within mainstream Judaism who believes that. Even the most anti-Zionist at least believe in theory that Eretz Yisroel has kedusha and we should be longing to return (albeit they may believe that we need to wait for Moshiach before we do so). In fact as I type I feel that I must be misunderstanding you post. Please tell me you didn't mean that you can't "wrap your head" around the idea of Jews wanting to live in EY. . .

↑ Chayalle ↓

Fri, May 13 2016, 11:52 am

5mom wrote:

First, the article is wrong on the facts. Plenty of Jews left the fold before the rise of political Zionism. More Jews became communists than Zionists, anyhow. And quite a few religious people supported Zionism.

Second, why can't Hashem make nonreligious Jews the agents of our salvation? Who are we to dictate how the world should be run?

Plenty of Jews left the fold, but they did not band together to found a Jewish homeland and present a face to the rest of the world as a nation like any nation.

I believe that we are the Am Segulah, a nation UNLIKE any other nation. We are a nation not just by birth, but because we all stood at Har Sinai and accepted the Torah together. We are charged with a mission of spreading the Dvar Hashem.

That is at the core of my opposition to the founders of the state of Israel.

↑ samantha87 ↓

Fri, May 13 2016, 1:24 pm

Chayalle wrote:

Someone once suggested a guy to one of my sisters whom we heard does not use Shekels when he is in Israel, and protested against Pononvezh for flying the Israeli flag on Yom HaAtzmaut.

(she declined to date him)

True about Briskers, and also true about the Brisker Rav.

I never understood people like that. Did he just spend his entire time with friends and relatives so as not to have to spend any money? If he is so opposed, why visit? Hard for me to fathom, but to each their own.