Chag HaAtzmaut Sameach

↑ m in Israel ↓

Thu, May 12 2016, 2:48 pm

Maya wrote:

So why live there?

The fact that a person (or group) doesn't accept Medinas Yisroel as a good thing and doesn't want to participate in its infrastructure doesn't mean they don't believe in the mitzva of living in Eretz Yisroel. There have been Jewish communities in EY for centuries. There are certainly many many reasons a frum person would want to live in Artzeinu Hakedosha that are not connected with voting, national health care, or the electric company.

(FTR I do vote, use the national health care and utilities, and pay taxes. I am not Brisker. But I am a bit taken aback that you cannot envision why someone would want to live in EY even if they don't believe in Zionism.)

PinkFridge ↓

Thu, May 12 2016, 2:50 pm

boysmom4 wrote:

can you explain to me why if we won the war and now we have an independant state why does that
equal up to saying Hallel?
Hallel said on each yom tov was decided about 2000 years ago by the Anshei Knesset Hagdola! Who decided that its normal to say Hallel and with a Bracha!! what a Bracha Levatala!!
Any explanations Please??

I hope to get through the whole thread this evening but have to stop here. Yes, I voted no change in my davening too. Music during sefira? Problem for me. But there is nothing wrong, IMO, with spending some time thinking about the great chesed, and boost to our national (and I mean us as a nation, whether or not we have access to our land) morale after the Holocaust, that this increased access to E"Y has brought us.*

Cue to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKgP6rLc6CY (can't open due to filters. Hope it's the ensemble clip from a classic Israeli film I'm hoping I linked to) Very Happy

*ETA: now that I caught up, I see this was in line with the Brisker Rav's "Divine smile."

Last edited by PinkFridge on Thu, May 12 2016, 4:37 pm; edited 1 time in total

↑ PinkFridge ↓

Thu, May 12 2016, 4:32 pm

FranticFrummie wrote:

https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/13221519_1042874182459166_8559814432425782993_n.jpg?oh=e7cba4b3fa3b0f48609e899b349b6ab9&oe=579F057F&__gda__=1474020416_f20b9f0a810319cdd7e8f20de70a9fae

Didn't open the link yet but I have to say, I'm so happy for you to be on location!
And iy"H, may 5 Iyar be replaced with a true 9 Av, b'karov!

↑ MitzadSheini

Thu, May 12 2016, 4:54 pm

So this is op. Hope everyone had a happy day.

And please please please all remember -

Shivvim panim ltorah

There are 70 different valid faces of the Torah.

And eilu veilu divrei Elokim chayim

And each and every one are the words of the living G-d.

And if you *knew the DAMAGE* that is done when another person's view is delegitimized, when an instrument from Hashem's beautiful international orchestra is muted when it should not be, or ch'v is denied the opportunity to play at all..... You would listen to each others differing opinion and always say "wow, that was interesting", and never ever put anyone else down.....

And remember that just as in an orchestra you might not notice so easily the missing back desk of the violins, because you are also playing the violin line and there are so many of them any way, but you will surely miss the piccolo if it is denied the opportunity to play, so to the more unusual the instrument, the more that its part, that its VOICE, is different to yours, the more important it is for YOU to listen to it.

Last edited by MitzadSheini on Thu, May 12 2016, 10:05 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Seagreen

Thu, May 12 2016, 10:43 pm

amother wrote:

Perhaps the satmer poster would like to read the book אם הבנים שמחה
By Rav Yisachar Shlomo Teichtal.

Perhaps re-read his book. I don't think he quite supported what was created.
I don't think his son ah who survived the Holocaust and published his fathers works (and was not Satmar) agreed with the interpretations of his fathers works.
Signed,
A niece of one his descendants

↑ etky

Thu, May 12 2016, 10:51 pm

mommy9 wrote:

Chanukah and purim are in the תורה שבעל פה.

And it was also a process until these miracles were absorbed and their attendant customs eventually observed by the entire Jewish people and entrenched for generations to come. Their acceptance and incorporation into the religion was not automatic and not w/o discussion and controversy at the time, for an array of religious and political reasons.
BTW, there are several versions of 'al hanissim' written for Yom Ha'atzmaut, some of which have been incorporated into special machzorim for Yom Ha'atzmaut and Yom Yerushalayim used by some DL kehillot in Israel.
The nusach that I say was composed by Amos Hacham, the late Bible scholar (a participating author of the Da'at Mikra series) and is IMO beautifully crafted.
Aside from Hallel with a bracha and other assorted tefillot and mizmorim, we also read a haftorah on Yom Ha'atzmaut: the perek of Yishayahu that is read on the eighth day of Pessach in chutz la'aretz, that talks about the future geula - a process that we believe is b"h already underway and in which we view ourselves as active participants.

mo5

Thu, May 12 2016, 10:52 pm

Karnash wrote:

Chayalle wrote:
I don't call anything that isn't called a Chag in the Torah, a chag.

I guess then, that you don't call Chanuka and Purim "chag" - they are not mentioned in the Torah.

The establishment of the State of Israel is a נס, perhaps even a נס גלוי. Never in the history of mankind has a people who have been scattered to the four corners of the earth, for 2000 years, returned to their homeland. The land of Israel existed after the churban, but עם ישראל did not come back in any significant numbers until the State was created. Latest statistics show that half of the world Jewish population now live in Israel. In 1948, the population of Israel was about 850,000. Today it is more than 8,300,000.
If that is not a miracle, what is?

It is a great miracle.
Chayelle shared some thoughts as to why people wouldn't be 'celebrating'

here's some more background as to why people don't celebrate (aside from the halachic problem of sefira- which is a big one!)
(Borrowed from an article online) "The state was being founded by secular- anti religious people with a deliberate anti religious agenda. Many G-d fearing Jews lost or gave up being religious because of Zionism."

"until Zionism it was clear that being Jewish meant keeping Torah laws, whoever left the practice of Judaism was clearly making a statement that he doesn’t want to remain part of the Jewish people and it was clear that there was no alternative to it. Zionsim came and said that being Jewish doesn’t consist in practicing Torah but rather the Jewish nation is a nation like any other, and so being Jewish is being nationalist. If you speak Hebrew, live in Israel and celebrate independence day you’re a good"

Now that there are facts on the ground of course we support the economy and security etc of the millions of Jews living there- but it doesn't change the fact that the government was founded by those who were against Torah and Mitzva and that attitude continues to affect us today. So we can support Israel but not celebrate this 'date' (it's not the victory date either- rather end of mandate and Ben gurions declaration)

↑ 5mom ↓

Thu, May 12 2016, 11:04 pm

mo5 wrote:

First, the article is wrong on the facts. Plenty of Jews left the fold before the rise of political Zionism. More Jews became communists than Zionists, anyhow. And quite a few religious people supported Zionism.

Second, why can't Hashem make nonreligious Jews the agents of our salvation? Who are we to dictate how the world should be run?

seeker

Thu, May 12 2016, 11:28 pm

I need to read more into it regarding saying hallel, considering it an official Jewish special day, etc. But I am 100% in favor of marking the day and celebrating Israel's existence. Regardless of what you feel about the government and founding Zionists, there is no denying that Israel's independence was the biggest positive turning point in perhaps 1000 years or more of Jewish history. I mean, how many times has anything good on a collective national level ever happened to the Jewish people? Say what you want about the government, and it's true that the founding Zionists had an agenda to pull people away from frum life, but look at all the good that has happened since then - and I believe even at the time it was pretty clear that having Israel at all was a positive thing even if it didn't happen exactly the way you'd want.

Still, we don't say hallel on Purim because the salvation was not complete, and likewise I see plenty of room to argue that this is similar. A huge turning point and leap in the right direction, but Israel continues to be fraught with hardship and persecution while other affiliated Jews remain scattered and subject to a lot of hostility. So as I said I am not yet well read in the topic of when to say hallel or not, but I'm definitely celebrating informally and think it's a perfectly suited day to do so.

↑ moonstone ↓

Fri, May 13 2016, 12:55 am

m in Israel wrote:

Oh, I can envision it. But I can't wrap my head around it. It's a point of view that I find strange, antiquated and, frankly, offensive.

↑ ally

Fri, May 13 2016, 1:45 am

mo5 wrote:

I think the statistics on intermarriage in Israel vs the US singlehandedly refutes these arguments.

water_bear88

Fri, May 13 2016, 4:41 am

amother wrote:

Good thing that you don't live in Israel, because you would have a hard time sticking to the principle of using words only according to their original Torah meaning.

OOC, what language will you be doing your business in when Mashiach comes?

She could always call it a "moed", which is a proper term for it as used in the official DL greeting for the day. It's Sefirah- can we all stop the bashing, please?

shabbatiscoming

Fri, May 13 2016, 4:56 am

amother wrote:

Did you read the work? It is one amazing thing to read. I started it a while ago. Rav Teichtal may not have supported what eretz yisrael is today, but he definitely supported a jewish state for all jews to be able to go to.

And it is well known that his sons, who had his work published, did not agree with what he wrote.

But myself, and may others out there, are very grateful for his work being published. They are read all over the world and have a very profound message.