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-> Chinuch, Education & Schooling
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amother
Wheat
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 Thu, Jan 14 2016, 12:06 pm
| Chayalle wrote: | The reason you need a car is because everyone has one, otherwise the demand would be such that public transportation would be better, or your life wouldn't be set up with apointments....
Society creates needs according to its norms. |
nope, I dont agree. I know plenty of people around here who dont have cars, or who dont drive and only their husband has a car because he drives. my life is set up with appointments because bh Hashem gave me children who have needs, and among those needs are appointments, most of which are not local.
again, I agree with your theory, but not with your comparison.
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amother
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Thu, Jan 14 2016, 12:15 pm
Just a few things to add.... To those who say don't send to a school that has policies you disagree with.... I live in a huge Jewish community, with many yeshivas of all different flavors. But they certainly don't break down on such fine hashkafic lines.
I agree with the overall idea that school rules are to be followed. But there is another side to it as well....
If a school finds itself with a parent body whose hashkafa is somewhat at odds with their own, they need to take stock of that reality, and tailor their approach. Not their hashkafa or their rules, but their approach to dealing with the reality of where their kids are coming from.
Let them think of it as kiruv if they must, but it has to be done differently. Bulldozing a bunch of frum kids doesn't work any better than if a real kiruv program took in a bunch of completely non-frum kids from non-frum homes and started screaming at them that they and their parents were sinners.
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Fox
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Thu, Jan 14 2016, 12:26 pm
Like many parents, I suspect, we felt that cell phones were unnecessary for teenagers.
That ended when we realized that role that cell phones play in helping kids stay safe as well as the discovery that a 19-year-old school secretary was often the gatekeeper who decided whether students were allowed to call their parents. After hearing enough horror stories about that alone, we reversed our opinion.
Most schools in our community have some kind of "check-in" system -- the phones are left in the office during classes and retrieved as the students leave or as needed.
However, I've seen ample evidence of the kind of heavy-handed policing described by the OP, and yes, it erodes trust in a way that klal Yisroel pays for dearly.
I realize it's hard to run a school, and teenagers have more energy and guile than adults. But unless the principal has been charged with preparing local RICO indictments, day-long interrogations, attempting to locate co-conspirators, and examining electronic records are tasks for law enforcement, not educators.
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suremom
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Thu, Jan 14 2016, 12:49 pm
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I think the boy who had the phone is really stupid. what a phone gets confiscated you just break it in half so that menahl can go thru the list! this boy knew that this is gonna happen. it wasnt a surprise to him at all. I know this happens constantly in chassidish yeshivas. all the bachurim know when menahl gets your phone its your achrayis to make sure he doesnt catch all the others! not saying either party is right or wrong but its a common and known practice.
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Fox
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Thu, Jan 14 2016, 1:57 pm
| JAWSCIENCE wrote: | This is how we get molesters and kids sitting out of schools because parents are not bribing the administration to get an admission - allowing unrestricted power and caving as parents rather than protecting our children.
. . . But nobody could . . . hold my parents hostage like this. |
I'd meant to include this in my previous post, but I got distracted by the specifics. Plus, it would have been so long that y'all would have said, "Uh oh, Fox is off on Regents again," and skipped it.
I think JAWSCIENCE identified the huge monster lurking under the bed. Schools are increasingly going into businesses previously dominated by the mafia, such as blackmail and extortion. And the robust Chinese Auction business may signal their entry into gambling.
But in all seriousness, this is really the problem underlying so many threads here on Imamother, including some of the most controversial ones.
For example, we just chewed up a lot of computer power over the driving issue. But it's not just about what a particular Rebbe decrees, from what I understand. It's about the schools. There are Chassidish Rebbes who routinely take into account a variety of factors when asked whether an individual woman should drive, and they may give different answers to different women. But the schools have a "rule," which, I might add, effectively supercedes whatever the Rebbe might determine. Hindy Chassidus might like or dislike her particular Rebbe's decision, but it doesn't really matter if he says to ride side-saddle on horseback if her children can't get into the school that they would otherwise attend.
Likewise in the Litvish community. There are a number of things done with parents and students by the schools in my community that are completely contrary to psaks given by our local dayan, Rabbi Shmuel Fuerst, sh"lita. When pressed on this, they usually answer, "Well, we don't bother Rabbi Fuerst for every little thing" or "Rabbi Fuerst provides guidance but doesn't make every decision." Indeed! Especially those day-to-day decisions that are contrary to halacha or are not good chinuch?
I don't know what the hot buttons are in the MO world, but I've worked with enough MO "heads of school" to know that they are not, in general, a humble and self-effacing bunch of people who would carefully avoid imposing their wills on others.
Stand up against the tyranny, and you're branded as a troublemaker -- either a naive parent who thinks her little snowflake can do no wrong or a hippy-dippy permissive parent for whom anything goes.
After almost 20 years as a teacher and administrator, I understand the pressure faced by schools -- not just Jewish schools. No school can afford to be "less" -- less rigorous, less serious, less observant, less disciplined . . . and like banks who prefer to loan money to people who don't need it, donors prefer to give money to already-successful schools. Five years of being the "less" school often means you have no school left.
But ultimately, everyone loses. Parents who want to fully support the schools find themselves helping their children evade certain rules that are contrary to good sense -- sending a terrible message. Children suffer no matter what; they either see their parents supporting bad behavior or they see their parents being cowed and hypocritical. And the schools suffer most of all: after a while, everyone keeps his head down and avoids attention and just gets through; the parents hate the school and the kids hate the school.
Of course, there are good schools out there. But power corrupts, and the power to choose who you will and won't allow into your school seems especially corrupting. I wish I had an answer. All I know is that the need for a parents' declaration of independence is at hand.
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imasinger
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Thu, Jan 14 2016, 1:57 pm
| mummiedearest wrote: | and the lesson of this story is:
make sure all your friends are listed as school board members on your contact list. when you run out of board members, use local politicians' names, popular rabbonim, and "daf yomi hotline" or some such similarity. |
Interesting thought, made me laugh.
To take it a step further, maybe those who are living in police environments like this and feel the need for their kids to have cellphones against school rules actually need to supply their kids with two phones -- the real one, and a cheap one with fake contacts, to turn in if needed.
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Merrymom
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Thu, Jan 14 2016, 2:12 pm
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I think once the boy was caught violating school policy, the pricipal is entitled to do whatever he/she wants with it besides using it for his personal use. I think kids are not entitled to privacy either. When my kids sleep I go through their phones from time to time as well. I don't assume my kids are ok. By then the damage can be done c"v. I assume this is an insane world our kids are growing up in and anyone who trusts their kids completely does not know what's really going on out there. Just a few weeks ago, my daughter and her friend were being used to cover up for two other friends who pretended to their parents that they were with them for Shabbos. Meanwhile they were hanging out with two boys alone in the first boy's house while his parents were away for Shabbos. They were there the entire day alone. You can be their mother and you're sure they just went to some girls for Shabbos. This is not the world we grew up in ladies.
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amother
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Thu, Jan 14 2016, 2:29 pm
| imasinger wrote: | Interesting thought, made me laugh.
To take it a step further, maybe those who are living in police environments like this and feel the need for their kids to have cellphones against school rules actually need to supply their kids with two phones -- the real one, and a cheap one with fake contacts, to turn in if needed. |
What do you think those in KJ do who are not allowed to have phone internet?
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mummiedearest
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Thu, Jan 14 2016, 2:32 pm
| Merrymom wrote: | | I think once the boy was caught violating school policy, the pricipal is entitled to do whatever he/she wants with it besides using it for his personal use. I think kids are not entitled to privacy either. When my kids sleep I go through their phones from time to time as well. I don't assume my kids are ok. By then the damage can be done c"v. I assume this is an insane world our kids are growing up in and anyone who trusts their kids completely does not know what's really going on out there. Just a few weeks ago, my daughter and her friend were being used to cover up for two other friends who pretended to their parents that they were with them for Shabbos. Meanwhile they were hanging out with two boys alone in the first boy's house while his parents were away for Shabbos. They were there the entire day alone. You can be their mother and you're sure they just went to some girls for Shabbos. This is not the world we grew up in ladies. |
actually, this has nothing to do with cell phones. teens have been pulling these stunts for ages. just because your friends weren't doing this (that you know of) doesn't mean it didn't happen when you were that age.
the principal was not looking out of fear that the kid was being unsafe. he was looking to get other kids into trouble. that's nasty.
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Chayalle
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Thu, Jan 14 2016, 2:33 pm
| mummiedearest wrote: | and the lesson of this story is:
make sure all your friends are listed as school board members on your contact list. when you run out of board members, use local politicians' names, popular rabbonim, and "daf yomi hotline" or some such similarity. |
A classmate of DD's was having fun one night...she added all the teachers to the grade's text group with phone numbers (probably some of her siblings) and was texting messages to the class under their names...the kids were having a field day.
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Tablepoetry
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Thu, Jan 14 2016, 2:35 pm
| Merrymom wrote: | | I think once the boy was caught violating school policy, the pricipal is entitled to do whatever he/she wants with it besides using it for his personal use. I think kids are not entitled to privacy either. When my kids sleep I go through their phones from time to time as well. I don't assume my kids are ok. By then the damage can be done c"v. I assume this is an insane world our kids are growing up in and anyone who trusts their kids completely does not know what's really going on out there. Just a few weeks ago, my daughter and her friend were being used to cover up for two other friends who pretended to their parents that they were with them for Shabbos. Meanwhile they were hanging out with two boys alone in the first boy's house while his parents were away for Shabbos. They were there the entire day alone. You can be their mother and you're sure they just went to some girls for Shabbos. This is not the world we grew up in ladies. |
Girls lied to their parents and spent time with boys long before this generation and long before cellphones. I am old enough to realize these things were always around.
And I don't think it's right to go through a teen's cellphone unless you tell them you plan to do so regularly. It's like eavesdropping on their conversations. I do believe teens deserve their privacy. You should guide them, warn them, teach them - but I dont think you should police their every move.
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Chayalle
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Thu, Jan 14 2016, 2:41 pm
| Tablepoetry wrote: | Girls lied to their parents and spent time with boys long before this generation and long before cellphones. I am old enough to realize these things were always around.
And I don't think it's right to go through a teen's cellphone unless you tell them you plan to do so regularly. It's like eavesdropping on their conversations. I do believe teens deserve their privacy. You should guide them, warn them, teach them - but I dont think you should police their every move. |
This I had to like twice. If there was a love button, I'd be loving it twice.
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amother
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Thu, Jan 14 2016, 3:01 pm
| Tablepoetry wrote: | Girls lied to their parents and spent time with boys long before this generation and long before cellphones. I am old enough to realize these things were always around.
And I don't think it's right to go through a teen's cellphone unless you tell them you plan to do so regularly. It's like eavesdropping on their conversations. I do believe teens deserve their privacy. You should guide them, warn them, teach them - but I dont think you should police their every move. |
I agree..... Much more is lost in terms of trust and respect than is gained in terms of... what?... knowing who they are talking to and about what?
Kids who have no tendencies toward this behavior do not really need checking up on. Kids that are drawn to behaviors that should be curtailed will find ways around the parental phone snooping, plus they'll mistrust and resent you.
I spent my teen years sneaking around behind my parents' backs without the help of a cellphone in the mid to late 80's.... AMA!
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amother
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Thu, Jan 14 2016, 3:06 pm
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Merrymom I agree with you. I also check my son's cellphone every few days. Anyone with a teenager knows they cannot be trusted to make mature decisions, even good kids cannot be completely trusted. And for those of you who say girls have been lying to their parents and spending time with boys long before this generation - yes that's true, but today it's 1000 times easier for them to hook up. Years ago, there was no texting, so a boy would have to call on the house phone or send messages through friends. Today it's all done with one click. You can't compare and you're wrong to just say "give them their privacy".
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Fox
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Thu, Jan 14 2016, 3:47 pm
There's a significant difference between a parent regularly checking a child's cell phone and a principal searching it in order to find evidence of co-conspirators.
Parents who regularly check their children's devices may have made such an agreement with the child when the phone was purchased, and they presumably know how much supervision each particular child needs. A lot depends on the specific child.
But a principal using a confiscated phone to attempt to incriminate students who wouldn't otherwise be suspected crosses the line from chinuch to law enforcement -- without a warrant, I might add.
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Chayalle
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Thu, Jan 14 2016, 3:59 pm
| Fox wrote: | There's a significant difference between a parent regularly checking a child's cell phone and a principal searching it in order to find evidence of co-conspirators.
Parents who regularly check their children's devices may have made such an agreement with the child when the phone was purchased, and they presumably know how much supervision each particular child needs. A lot depends on the specific child.
But a principal using a confiscated phone to attempt to incriminate students who wouldn't otherwise be suspected crosses the line from chinuch to law enforcement -- without a warrant, I might add. |
I have to respectfully agree and disagree with you here, fox.
I'm fine with parents who regularly check children's devices if there has been an agreement with the child. But I don't think a parent should check up on their child behind their back.
I see a principal confiscating a phone the same way, sort of. If it's known that they do this (and I've definitely heard this many times) than those who break the rule have to know that this is the risk they run when they break the rule or when someone else does and they are in contact with that someone. It's like when law enforcement catches one guy, and he exposes the whole gang. All of them broke the law, and all find themselves in hot water.
Some time ago there was a thread about a woman who was checking her daughter's diary, and I was pretty against the infringement on her daughter's privacy there. There's something off at the core of the relationship of a mother who would do that to her child that is much worse than anything she might uncover there.
But kids who know their parents will be on top of their phone usage is different than a private diary. I can see the calls my DD makes on her phone online and she knows that - it's something we made clear when she got the phone.
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Fox
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Thu, Jan 14 2016, 4:18 pm
| Chayalle wrote: | I'm fine with parents who regularly check children's devices if there has been an agreement with the child. But I don't think a parent should check up on their child behind their back.
I see a principal confiscating a phone the same way, sort of. If it's known that they do this (and I've definitely heard this many times) than those who break the rule have to know that this is the risk they run when they break the rule or when someone else does and they are in contact with that someone. It's like when law enforcement catches one guy, and he exposes the whole gang. All of them broke the law, and all find themselves in hot water. |
If the school has explicitly stated that this is the policy, then there might be a little wiggle room. But the idea that something's "known" doesn't constitute an official policy.
Perhaps I'm overly influenced by the standards of American law, but I see a lot of potential damage in the overall policy of getting kids to implicate one another in wrongdoing when there's no clear and present danger.
I also see a significant risk for the school. I find in my work that a huge number of school administrators are not knowledgable about their potential liability; they assume that "nobody's going to sue; we're all Jews here." But if (a) you're not explicit about your rules and practices in writing; and (b) you don't provide a semblance of due process; well, you're opening yourself up for a world of legal hurt.
The other problem is that many principals don't have the technological resources to make a full investigation. If I send you a text, but there's no response, are you now a suspect? Without complete phone records, there's no way to tell if you received it, deleted it, or never had texting in the first place. And that's the kind of work actual law enforcement agents would do. But that's a lot of work for a school administrator, and most don't know or understand the technical aspects. In fact, a lot of parents aren't up for that level of investigation, either.
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Tablepoetry
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Thu, Jan 14 2016, 4:44 pm
A school can confiscate a phone. That's not the same thing as hacking the phone and sifting through a kid's personal communications.
If the principal is going through a kid's contact list, who is to gaurantee he's not reading the messages too? Maybe he can look at the picture gallery while he's at it, to ensure the kid is dressed properly at all times? Maybe he can check the web history to see what web sites the kid has visited?
Really, I'm horrified that anyone would think this is OK in any form. I know schools have a policy that phones will be confiscated, but I've never heard a school have a formal policy of investigating those confiscated phones. I don't know whether or not it is legal but it certainly is immoral, and doubly so when a so-called educator does it.
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Butterfly07
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Thu, Jan 14 2016, 6:39 pm
NOT ok for him to search thru anyone's phone!!!! Nope, not at all 
And the big issue is, that as a Jewish school, they 'can' be like that all they want because they know they can get away with things Or Else they will threaten with kicking the kid out of the school. But if it were a public school, the would definitely be put in their place with the law! It is one thing to confiscate property, but abuse of power to invade privacy?! Even cops need to get a warrant from a judge to do such things! Hallacha wise, you are not even supposed to open someone elses mail... I consider text messaging like mail. It is directed to that person alone!
^As a parent, you can have an agreement with your kid: Before you give them a phone or let them on the internet, let them know that you will do random spot checkups (with them around or not..) -For their own safety of course 
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mummiedearest
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Thu, Jan 14 2016, 8:41 pm
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just to point out, this is a futile action on the principal's part anyway. contacts are not all cell phone numbers. even phone numbers starting with standard cell phone area codes can be non-cell phones. unless the principal stands in middle of the classroom, calls each number one by one, and waits to hear ring tones, he can't prove that these kids have cell phones. even texts don't prove anything. I think the principal needs a few lessons on the various forms of modern technology.
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