Food in NON kosher restaurants

↑ GramaNewYork

Mon, May 14 2007, 3:31 pm

I am not surprised. I feel that here in the US larger cities most of us are spoiled because we have hechsherim and we our lucky that our rabbis have narrowed it all down for us.

I'm not a talmid chochom (wise/learned person) but I have a feeling that people who live in places that do not have the luxury of the OU, the StarK, etc., have to check things out for themselves and some people who do not bother being dan l'kav zchus (did I say that right?) jump to the conclusion that they are doing something wrong.

One of my brother-in-laws is very frum, learns most of the day and went to a very shtark yeshiva. He was in Egypt once and he knew what he was allowed to eat...I wouldn't have known so if I'd have seen him, maybe I would've thought he was doing something wrong.

↑ HindaRochel ↓

Mon, May 14 2007, 3:44 pm

One Rabbi who taught my husband had to go to Japan for something. He went into a regular treif Japanese restaurant, order a whole kosher type fish, went into the kitchen to watch them clean it, then wrapped it twice in aluminum foil and had them cook it in their oven. I am assuming he did something so they it wasn't bishul akom...however that is spelled.

And he is a big posek.

↑ PinkandYellow ↓

Mon, May 14 2007, 4:12 pm

when you are in europe you don't have the hechsherim that we have in us and il. there are many foods that you have to "know" are ok to eat. basically, you need to have a competant rav (or be one yourself) that is mevarer these inyanim and can tell you whats ok. a simple example, we flew from il to ame on czech airlines. the coke doesn't have any hechsher and we weren't sure if we can drink it so we didn't. when we got to prague, the head rav said that all coke and sprite in europe is ok to drink, even though you'll never find one with any sort of kosher certificate. we later verified this with s/o else we knew in europe. ps, no one that we contacted in ame was able to give us this info. so obviously, us folks in us and il with access to thousands of kosher foods with tens of diff available hechsherim, can't really pass judgement on our European counterparts.

shoy18

Mon, May 14 2007, 4:24 pm

Before the institution on hechsherim and all the commercialization that goes along with it, people looked at ingredients and with the help of a rav knew what was kosher and what wasn't. As for non-kosher restaurants for people who go to various different countries where no kosher food is readily available can go into restaurants and order fish that they can see, veggies, and the like. Its only in the US and Israel that hechsherim are so easily obtainable.

↑ Raisin

Mon, May 14 2007, 5:43 pm

I live in Europe. While it is true that you can buy things like coke, fruit juice, candy, chocolate with no hechsher (there is a kosher list, however things keep changing and lots of stuff is just not on the list eg fruit juice - you just check the ingredients, tinned fruit, flour, rice, sugar all the basics)
I don't know frum people who go into non-kosher resturants. Many so called orthodox people (I.e not that frum) will eat fish and dairy out. I also have heard of people eating in a vegetarian resturant. (this is already a higher level; usually m.o americans I may add)

I always feel really bad for unsuspecting american tourists who come here. It can be really hard to figure out what's what.

You do see hechsherim on some stuff - eg kellogs cereal. (We had a bochur here for Pesach, a BT who was so excited to see cocoa pops with a hechsher (either they are not kosher or dairy in the U.S). He had not had them since before he was frum.

nylon

Mon, May 14 2007, 5:57 pm

Yes, t's very confusing because many people in Europe are "orthodox" (Ie belong to an Orthodox shul) but are not frum.

We do have lists of kosher products but that's for the supermarket; you can't use that for eating out!

I was always told that you can have fountain soda as long as all the flavours in the unit are kosher b/c it's a sealed system and nothing else can get in. Also, the cost of the syrup is so low that we don't worry they'll be substituting something cheaper.

With regard to ma'arit ayin and going into a treif restaurant, I have heard people say it isn't necessarily, because we know that someone may just be using the facilities (on road trips where you don't have formal rest areas, these are the best places to stop) or in a more formal setting are only there for business and aren't eating. I had a black-hat rav at a school where I worked say it was perfectly OK to go into McD's and get a Coke. He added that he personally wouldn't, BUT that if he were out with his children and they needed the toilet he would not hesitate to use theirs if that was what was available.

↑ Marion ↓

Mon, May 14 2007, 8:30 pm

TzenaRena wrote:

Quote:

And for those who ask why you can't just use the restroom, my husband was once given a psak that using the facilities of a restaurant without paying for (at least) a drink, was stealing from the owners because they still have to pay the utility bills, and the cleaning staff.

They don't mind people using it without asking. Their cheshbon is that it's paying for itself by bringing more customers.

DH's Rav disagreed with you. I'll take the psak we got, thanks.

↑ Marion ↓

Mon, May 14 2007, 8:35 pm

HindaRochel wrote:

I would think that rest stop restaurants would expect people to come in and use their facilities vs you get stuck somewhere in the city and no stores are open with facilities. Could that be what your Rav was referring to Marion or did he mean all cases where you have used a bathroom?

My understanding was all cases where it's not specifically a public washroom. For example, there's a difference between using a restroom in the mall (because the restroom in the mall is not owned by any one store, and many people go to the mall but don't find what they're looking for...but most people don't just stop at the mall to use the facilities) and using a restroom in a place where it's clear that it's for customers. Since it's not clear that a "rest stop" washroom is not only for the convenience of its customers, the Rav's psak was that one should purchase a sealed item (chips, soft drink, chocolate bar from the vending machine...) when one uses such a facility.

Also, many gas station restrooms are kept locked. In any spot where you have to ask for the key, we were told it's gneivat da'at to not purchase something, since the owner assumes that you are a customer when he gives you the key.

MOM222

Mon, May 14 2007, 8:45 pm

Marion wrote:

Also, many gas station restrooms are kept locked. In any spot where you have to ask for the key, we were told it's gneivat da'at to not purchase something, since the owner assumes that you are a customer when he gives you the key.

I would think that the reson he lets use the bathroom so that you would walk thru the store and something would catch your eye making you buy.

↑ amother ↓

Mon, May 14 2007, 9:34 pm

Plenty of pple date and get drinks at more than lounges, but maybe not full scale restaurants.

If needed, I will use facilities at a non kosher place, even if not on the highway. (I think the laws of l"h cover those emergency needs)

Of course in a frum area, you have all your kosher & frum needs but if you don't how much is halacha & how much better to do it this way.

Do you know, an out-of-town yeshivish rabbi once told me that cut up fruit in the supermarket does NOT need a hechsher! I nearly fainted. Its just that if you live in a bustling jewish place, who as the need to know that?

And I do know shomer shabbat & kosher people who will eat salads in non kosher restaurants, they are not observant up to halachic standards but I wouldnt call them not frum, nor would I eat in their homes.

Maras Ayin is very important but so is dan lekaf zechut.

Lawyers & accountants go into non kosher establishments all the time, to do the books for the place, to meet in the place of business. Sometimes companies have mandatory meetings in restaurants too.

↑ Crayon210 ↓

Mon, May 14 2007, 9:37 pm

Marion wrote:

TzenaRena wrote:

Quote:

They don't mind people using it without asking. Their cheshbon is that it's paying for itself by bringing more customers.

DH's Rav disagreed with you. I'll take the psak we got, thanks.

I don't understand what he disagreed with. The restaurant owners? Don't they get a say? Confused

↑ Crayon210 ↓

Mon, May 14 2007, 9:38 pm

chocolate moose wrote:

I have been told that standards are different in Europe and that it's common to have a coffee in a mug in a bistro there, or some such.

I wonder if people know what the Aruch HaShulchan has to say about that...

↑ Crayon210 ↓

Mon, May 14 2007, 9:43 pm

chocolate moose wrote:

Not eveyrthing in the SA is to be taken literally!

I didn't say anything about the Shulchan Aruch. Confused

Quote:

Crayon, I was told by the Rebbe's shaliach himself what the standards are there. He's also a poskening rov!

I didn't say anything, except express my amusement in light of what the Aruch HaShluchan says about the issue of drinking unsupervised coffee.

↑ Crayon210 ↓

Mon, May 14 2007, 11:24 pm

He tells a story of a man who used to drink coffee out at a particular non-kosher place, but the man said it's just coffee and milk, no big deal...

Then one day he was talking to the owner and asked how do you get your coffee drinks to taste so good, he answered I flavor them with parts of a pig. shock

↑ Ruchel

Mon, May 14 2007, 11:47 pm

Ravs here allow you to buy stuff in non kosher bakeries, except high class luxury ones as well as traditional "terroir" ones, because they might use animal grease to make it taste good. So I'm not so surprised with the coffee story, although I don't think it would happen today in a normal coffee house.

↑ HindaRochel ↓

Tue, May 15 2007, 12:47 am

Quote:

I don't understand what he disagreed with. The restaurant owners? Don't they get a say?

Crayon, your understanding of the issue doesn't matter; this is what Marion's Rav said. She's got to follow is line of reasoning, not mine, and not even my Ravs.