Junior Minyanim | Imamother

Motek ↓

Fri, May 04 2007, 5:59 am

Every time I read about them, it bothers me. Was there ever such a thing in our history? Or did little boys always daven next to their fathers?

1) I don't like separating fathers and sons. They should share this mitzva experience, IMO. I won't say "bonding experience," but it's something they should do together.

I think it's artificial, and so modern-day-culture to separate the young from the old, like the children raised in dormitories on kibbutzim, anti-family. Jewish life is multi-generational.

Should we also have separate children's sedarim?!

2) I think it's important for them to see adults davening, role models (in a proper davening atmosphere, of course).

3) Who's running the minyan? What role do prizes and nosh play? Ugh.

4) Yes, I'm concerned, in this crazy day-and-age, about who is running the minyan. A bachur? Married? Trustworthy?

p.s. Unfortunately, there are children who don't have fathers to take them to shul. This is tragic but I don't think junior minyanim is the solution. Rather, a father-figure-substitute is what a boy needs. And not just for shul!

your opinion?

Ruchel

Fri, May 04 2007, 8:38 am

There is a junior minyan in a town close to mine. Unfortunately it's not geared towards frum kids as it is on shabbes and there is virtually no Jewish community in this town -> most kids come by car from other neighbouring towns.

So yeah, it is cool that the Chabad have all kind of activities, too bad it's only on shabbes. I have talked to a few other frum girls and we definitely have the feeling of being left out because we are frum - which is kind of problematic for shluchim who are supposed to bring Jews back to religion, no? I mean, I know a few people "on the verge" of frum/not frum who went back to driving on shabbes for these activities. Confused

sorry for the vent...

chen

Fri, May 04 2007, 9:20 am

My community does not use the term children's minyan since it's not a minyan at all.

I am going to answer your post as I understand it, assuming you are referring to combination daven-and-play groups held in a shul Shabbos morning for children of preschool through early elementary age, the children being memebers of observant families who daven in the same shul.

As most of the shuls I have been to are not particularly child-friendly, and as the service doesn't particularly make allowances for children's capabilities or lack thereof, and as young children tend to have a relatively short attention span, which, once it has been exceeded, results in their fidgeting, talking and otherwise disturbing the tzibbur, and as young children are not obligated to daven to the same extent as adults, and as many parents of young children are faced with just two options, to wit: take the children to shul with you or don't go to shul at all:

I say, bring on the junior congregation, provided the activities are age-appropriate and there is some semblance of davening going on! (If there's no davening, then it's not a jr. cong. but a playgroup or babysitting service.) A break for the parents who can daven in peace and with kavvonoh without one eye on the siddur and one eye on the child, and excellent chinuch for the child, plus the creation of pleasant associations with shul rather than vague impressions of excruciating boredom and suppression of one's energy. Grown-up shul becomes a privilege of which one is granted a short taste each week after junior cong. ends, and to which one graduates when one merits.

I don't see a two-hour break from Poppa on Shabbos morning as having any deleterious effect on the spiritual development of a kindergartener or first grader. Poppa and Sonny have all Shabbos to be together. And Sonny is not staying in jr. cong. till he gets married. He'll have plenty of years to observe adult men davening in a proper davening atmosphere, well before bar mitzvah age.

For boys who nebach don't have a father to take them to shul, a jr. cong. is even more valuable to them than it is to boys with fathers. You have any idea what it's like for a little boy to be by himself in the men's section? Even if someone else's father has rachmones on him and takes him under his wing? In jr. cong he is like everyone else for a while. Sure, it would be nice if every fatherless child would have a reliable substitute father figure, but you can't just walk into wal-Mart and buy one! Who's going to take on the job? "a bochur? married? trustworthy?" and how appropriate would that be, anyway? what insinuations will the neighbors make when some man who is not married to the boy's mother is so involved in his life?

your concerns about nosh, prizes, and who's running the show can apply equally to institutions such as pirchei and other shabbos groups.

Now if you are referring to teenage minyanim held separately from the main minyon of a shul--I have heard of those only in Conservative shuls, usually very large ones. I would not express an opinion about those b/c I know nothing about them.

chocolate moose ↓

Fri, May 04 2007, 10:00 am

I grew up with one and a lot of adults even prefer the junion minyan!!!!

But to your point about fathers and sons bonding, we have a friend who comes to the Kinus HaShluchim every year, even tho they are not official shluchim. The kids of the shluchim have a winter camp that is geared just for them. I think that’s great! The father s get to daven, leaner, network, etc. However our friend does not think the kiddie activities are a good idea; he thinks the boys should be with the fathers and he gives our other guests a hard time about that every year.

I think adults need adult time. For whatver reason, he doesn’t agree – and his kids sit there, with scowls on their faces, every single time they come!!!

shanie5

Sat, May 05 2007, 10:23 pm

motek, some(many) kids cant sit for the longer "adult" minyan. even bar mitzvah boys dont have the patience to sit for the whole davneing if it includes speeches and "chazanish" teffillos. the junior minyan where I grew up (frum) was for these boys. they davenend the full davening, but at a faster pace than the adults.

here, we have a day school minyan, run by the rebbeim and students. different boys from the different grades get kibbudim each week. this week my 7 yr old (2nd grade) led them in mizmor ledovid, and my 11 yr old (6th grade) gave a short dvar toreh. other kibbudim include anim zemiros, gabbai, laining, haftorah, brochos, and adon olam at the end. the parents of the child usually show up when their child(ren) has a kibbud that week.

Marion ↓

Sun, May 06 2007, 6:26 am

I also grew up with a "Jr. Cong" and don't see anything wrong with it. I gotta tell you, from a not-FFB perspective, a lot of kids got more from davening with other kids than from being dragged to shul to run around in the hallways, or not going at all. We did all the davening, had a weekly skit about the parsha (great book...Sedra Scenes), said mussaf, and made a kiddush at the end (cookies & grape juice or apple juice). We got attendance cards that at the end of the year we could trade in for a single prize, and there was something for everyone (all the way from came once all year to came all 40 or so times). The socializing went on at kiddush, not during davening. And we finished about 1/2 an hour before the main service, so most of us still went in and sat with our parents for Ein Kelokeinu, Aleinu, and Adon Olam. Now they bring in all the nursery kids to stand on the bimah for kiddush in the main shul...it's not cute to see them running around and making noise during the end of davening while they wait.

They also introduced a "bar mitzvah" service...it's a family service, so Junior davens with Dad (and Mom in some cases) and learns his way around the davening (and a sefer torah) without being disruptive in the 3+ hour long main service. It's a step up from the Jr. Congregation because they start to take on the roles of gabbai and they learn about kibbudim properly.

↑ Motek

Sun, May 06 2007, 7:52 pm

Thanks for all responses.

I didn't think about specific ages when I posted. Now that age came up, if a child is as young as 4, for example, if he's ready to spend a short time in shul, Friday night (in the winter) is a good thing to start with, with his father, or mincha Shabbos afternoon.

I was definitely not thinking of preschool though but more like elementary school, something like 7-12.

GR wrote:

I didn't even know that there are shuls here with Junior Minyanim.

R' Engel, former rebbi in O.T. used to run one for elementary age. Pickle - who runs the one your son goes to?

Quote:

What about a bochrim's minyan- when the entire Yeshiva davens together? Do you think all the boys should be davening with their fathers?

yes

↑ Marion

Sun, May 06 2007, 11:02 pm

Motek wrote:

My DS (as you can see in my ticker) is 14 months old. Sometimes, when we're at home, DH takes him to shul Friday night. It's fine because there's singing and that keeps him entertained. But it means DH misses the drasha, because DS certainly doesn't have the patience for that. When we go back to Jerusalem for Shabbat, DH can take him for Kabbalat Shabbat...but the whole 2 hour service (even if they leave for the drasha) is still too much, even with all the music. That means that for most families with young children, the option is either Eema or Abba has to stay home, or they have to find staggered minyanim...not always an option. I'd rather send my child to a junior minyan than have him run around making a mess and noise and interfering with the regular davening.

brooklyn

Mon, May 07 2007, 4:00 am

chen wrote:

My community does not use the term children's minyan since it's not a minyan at all.

As most of the shuls I have been to are not particularly child-friendly, and as the service doesn't particularly make allowances for children's capabilities or lack thereof, and as young children tend to have a relatively short attention span, which, once it has been exceeded, results in their fidgeting, talking and otherwise disturbing the tzibbur, and as young children are not obligated to daven to the same extent as adults, and as many parents of young children are faced with just two options, to wit: take the children to shul with you or don't go to shul at all:

I say, bring on the junior congregation, provided the activities are age-appropriate and there is some semblance of davening going on! (If there's no davening, then it's not a jr. cong. but a playgroup or babysitting service.) A break for the parents who can daven in peace and with kavvonoh without one eye on the siddur and one eye on the child, and excellent chinuch for the child, plus the creation of pleasant associations with shul rather than vague impressions of excruciating boredom and suppression of one's energy. Grown-up shul becomes a privilege of which one is granted a short taste each week after junior cong. ends, and to which one graduates when one merits.

I don't see a two-hour break from Poppa on Shabbos morning as having any deleterious effect on the spiritual development of a kindergartener or first grader. Poppa and Sonny have all Shabbos to be together. And Sonny is not staying in jr. cong. till he gets married. He'll have plenty of years to observe adult men davening in a proper davening atmosphere, well before bar mitzvah age.

That's exactly how it is in my shul.

↑ gryp

Mon, May 07 2007, 6:23 am

Quote:

Now that age came up, if a child is as young as 4, for example, if he's ready to spend a short time in shul, Friday night (in the winter) is a good thing to start with, with his father, or mincha Shabbos afternoon.

My 3 year old likes to go for Mincha on regular days and on Shabbosim. Now Shabbos ends later though.

Quote:

I was definitely not thinking of preschool though but more like elementary school, something like 7-12.

12? A almost Bar Mitzvah Bochur not yet sitting through shul? Shaking

7-9 I can understand a little, 10 maybe if the boy is young for his age, but 11 and 12? Confused

Quote:

Quote:
What about a bochrim's minyan- when the entire Yeshiva davens together? Do you think all the boys should be davening with their fathers?

yes

I think so too. I would like to hear from Roshei Yeshiva why they think it's better for bochrim to daven together than with their fathers. They daven together a whole week, why do they need a bochrim's minyan on Shabbos too? What purpose does it serve?