Why don't chassidish women fast?

fbc

Sun, Jul 05 2015, 9:38 am

My father's rov always told us women shouldn't fast except for yom kippur and tisha bav because women are naturally weaker, and therefore the non major fasts, we shouldn't fast. He is a very well respected rov, and his family is very well respected across the world for ages. I grew up with Chassidish minhagim, although we are a mostly litvish family, then married a total litvak, who still tells me not to fast the whole time if I feel I really can't.

boymom

Sun, Jul 05 2015, 9:47 am

I don't think its a blanket statement that all chassidish women are exempt from fasting. we always fasted as girls and I must say that at least half the girls in our chassidish camp fasted on 17 tammuz. certain chassidisus in general do make it a general statement for all women no to fast.
someone told me her dh told her that women don't fast during childbearing years cuz either their before a pregnancy or after a pregnancy. or somewhere in between. I guess childbearing women are always in the classification of weak/ill ?

↑ 5mom ↓

Sun, Jul 05 2015, 10:09 am

boymom wrote:

And then women beyond childbearing years are too old to fast?
The only chassidishe dayan I ever asked about this just said, "that's what we do" but wouldn't elaborate.
That's why I'm curious. No one seems to know or care why a practice evolved (in some communities) against halacha.

↑ gp2.0 ↓

Sun, Jul 05 2015, 10:29 am

myself wrote:

gp2.0, most chassidish women, Satmar or not, don't fast besides for YK and TB so I don't why you're 'blaming' Satmar for this one.

I find it very difficult to fast so rarely fast besides for YK and TB now, however as a girl there was no two ways about it, fasting really made me ill but it was just one of those things that were non-negotiable. My mother fasted too when she wasn't nursing or pregnant.

Regarding attending one's baby's bris - for me it's a non-issue. For starters, so far, I was never well enough to attend my baby's bris. Second, I wouldn't cope with it emotionally. I was kvater a number of times and the crying breaks my heart each time anew.

I grew up in a Satmar household and this is what my Satmar father told me. Take it or leave it.

And yet somehow you coped with the pain even though it broke your heart. It's so funny how men think women can't cope with a baby crying in pain, and they push this illogical mentality on the women until they believe it too. Who takes the babies for vaccinations or ear piercing? Who is with their babies if they have surgery? Who soothes babies when they fall off the bed or down the stairs? Somehow we can cope with all that other pain, but not with bris pain? It's pure nonsense, that's what it is.

Sanguine ↓

Sun, Jul 05 2015, 10:45 am

gp2.0 wrote:

men think women can't cope with a baby crying in pain, and they push this illogical mentality on the women until they believe it too. Who takes the babies for ear piercing?

It's a Chassidish requirement to pierce your baby's ears? Learn something new Very Happy

. For the life of me I can never understand why mothers find it necessary to pierce their baby's ears. My babies were all so adorable and yummy they never needed jewelry or make-up either. It's fun to dress them up in ruffles and stuff, but earrings I never understood cause they're just as perfect in only a diaper. I guess ear-piercing is a Chumra. Why else would you hurt your child? Why would you make an infant dress like a grown-up? It's for the Shidduch?

imasinger

Sun, Jul 05 2015, 10:53 am

I'd rather be obligated to fast, and free to drive. But that's just me. I'd also rather be near my crying infant, and ready to sooth him sooner, than home knowing he was screaming, and I wasn't there.

But none of that was the point of the question, which was not about personal preference, but reason.

And it appears that the reason is that there is some notion that fasting is worse for women than for men, and therefore, they should be exempt from all but the biggest ones.

Asked, and answered. Thank you.

↑ mommy3b2c ↓

Sun, Jul 05 2015, 11:00 am

imasinger wrote:

I don't fast (although I did as a girl) and I not only drive, but I have my own car. I went to one of my sons brissim and not the other. The joys of being heimish Smile

amother

Burlywood

Sun, Jul 05 2015, 11:32 am

And why do women get to shave in the three weeks when men don't?

(See the other thread today)

This is a basic fact, that women are not mechuyav in mitzvos eseh shehazman geramah with some obvious exceptions. Some of the exceptions are only so because women accepted them upon themselves and they now have the status of halachah.

I heard some chassiduser don't allow women in the succah. And I never eat the million kezeysim of matzoh and maror on pesach. Etc etc.

a jewish woman ↓

Sun, Jul 05 2015, 11:33 am

gp2.0 wrote:

AIUI, because the Satmar rebbe said so, and while people ignore pretty much everything else he said, for this one they're happy to jump on the train. Rumor goes he said something along the lines of, "if a woman is pregnant or nursing she shouldn't fast, and if she's not pregnant or nursing she must be ill so she shouldn't fast either." Rolling Eyes

Also, the heimish/chassidish mentality tends to coddle women, mostly in relation to childbirth (in some ways that are beneficial, like encouraging postpartum rest, and in some that are not, like discouraging attendance to your own son's bris)

The chasidim coddle women? Take a ride on the wb bus and you will find chasidishe women who are pregnant with or without other children having to make their way to the back of the bus while the strong able-bodied non pregnant men get to sit in the front and don't have to get up for the pregnant ladies. The women are far from being coddled, and that is true for everything else- pesach cleaning (chasidim don't really go to hotels so the women are forced to clean and cook regardless if they are pregnant or not, driving(women can't drive but have to schlep all over even when they are pregnant) etc. I wouldn't associate the word coddle with chasidishe women at all.

↑ 5mom ↓

Sun, Jul 05 2015, 11:36 am

imasinger wrote:

Yeah, it's the "some notion" that gets me. No evidence, just a decision in some communities that this is too hard.
What if someone were to say that abstinence was easier for our ancestors than it is for us? Would we give up the Shiva nekiim, because, hey, it's derabbanan?
I would be a lot more comfortable with people saying, we ought to do better but this is an area of weakness in our community. Because justifying a lack of observance sets us on a slippery slope.
An easy fast to those who are fasting, and food for thought for those who are not.

amother

Denim ↓

Sun, Jul 05 2015, 11:47 am

This heter goes way back before the satmar rebbe.

Most chassidus like tzanz, bobov, klausenburg, spink, and many others have it in their mesorah from way back not to allow women to fast.

There are some chassidus that do require the women to fast btw. It's not a rule across the board.

I grew up chassidish and we were required to fast...

Now I'm so grateful that I don't have to fast. It's impossible when running after the kids in the heat.

↑ gp2.0

Sun, Jul 05 2015, 11:48 am

a jewish woman wrote:

That's life. Full of contradictions.

It would be so much easier if there were blanket statements for everything. But there aren't.

It can be a challenge to imagine people complexly. Everyone loves an easy answer. Often there isn't one.

FWIW most of the chassidishe women I know have cleaning help. Many have weekly help, some arrange for twice or thrice weekly.

↑ 5mom ↓

Sun, Jul 05 2015, 11:52 am

amother wrote:

I know it's not universal for women not to fast.
Even the "way back" minhagim of different groups don't go back very far, because chassidus is relatively young when you look at Jewish history.

↑ mommy3b2c ↓

Sun, Jul 05 2015, 11:52 am

a jewish woman wrote:

Basically, all your post proves is that people will bash chassidim no matter what they do.

amother

↑ Denim

Sun, Jul 05 2015, 11:54 am

And btw to all of you who are preaching against the fact that women don't fast, hold your breath.

No chassidish woman will come online and say, hey my Dayan said I shouldn't fast but some anonymous woman on imamother said that its crazy if I don't, so I better fast!

Go find something better to do:)

Easy fast to all of you!

↑ myself ↓

Sun, Jul 05 2015, 12:01 pm

gp2.0 wrote:

I'm not saying the Satmar Rebbe never said that. I don't know what he did or didn't say. All I'm saying is that there must be other opinions too as women not fasting is not exclusive to Satmar.

Again, I never had the strength to attend my sons' bris so it's a non-issue for me. My SIL actually did attend her son's bris but she lives in a different town where it's the norm despite the fact that she comes from a super-chassidish family.

There is a very big difference between a bris and vaccinations/any other procedure, in as much as you are actually there with them, holding them, calming them down etc. whilst at the bris you are a helpless bystander who can do nothing of the sort until it's over, which can sometimes take a while.

Just want to add that I've never heard that chassidish women are not allowed to fast. They are told they don't have to. Same with going to their sons' bris. No obligation, but if you want to? Go right ahead. Of course they'll be those that will always want to do what everyone does though. LOL

Last edited by myself on Sun, Jul 05 2015, 12:11 pm; edited 1 time in total

shalhevet ↓

Sun, Jul 05 2015, 12:02 pm

myself wrote:

Regarding attending one's baby's bris - for me it's a non-issue. For starters, so far, I was never well enough to attend my baby's bris. Second, I wouldn't cope with it emotionally. I was kvater a number of times and the crying breaks my heart each time anew.

Are Litvish women stronger? I barely heard of a bris that a Litvish mother "wasn't well enough" to attend. No one expects you to look like you just stepped out of a magazine (although maybe that's the problem here). What about the baby who "isn't well" too just after his bris and appreciates his mother's arms and nursing?

And good if you cry. Use it for tefillos for the baby - that he grow to be a talmid chacham and yarei shamayim. Use it for Am Yisroel. When the baby cries, the heavens are open for our tefillos.