Will Humans want to alter their bodies to become 4 legged?

↑ Scrabble123 ↓

Thu, Jun 04 2015, 9:29 am

gittelchana wrote:

It already exists.

Being politically correct helps no one.

Let's face it - trans people have a messed up life, before and after surgery. Surgery does nothing to change that. Surgery is a huge disservice to these people. It denies them the true help they need.

Since you seem to believe you are an expert in the field, would you tell me what true help they need?
(I BTW do not know what help they need: I assume that it would a combination of both biological & psychological and that every individual is not the same).

amother

Linen

Thu, Jun 04 2015, 10:10 am

I don't understand what all this talk of chromosomes has to do with transgender.
Are you saying that people who are transgender really have a mess up somewhere in their chromosomes and that is why they feel the way they do?
And someone with perfectly normal chromosomes will never have these feelings?

If that is the case then transgender should be classified a biological disorder. And given whatever help is necessary for them to live as they wish.
A DNA test would be simple enough to use to diagnose this and everyone would understand. There wouldn't be a controversy in the first place.

↑ MagentaYenta ↓

Thu, Jun 04 2015, 10:16 am

amother wrote:

It's all a bit more complicated than a DNA test since gene expression is influenced by may factors. Zaq has a post up thread where she give a very good explanation of this.

↑ DrMom ↓

Thu, Jun 04 2015, 10:48 am

Scrabble123 wrote:

Are you uncomfortable because the individual is a man? Or looks like a man? Would you be uncomfortable with an open Lesbian who looks very feminine? Are you concerned with tznius? Is this a Jewish thing? Can you pinpoint or it is just "funny" and irrational?
Men also have an added issue with homophobia because some guys who were straight were often often of being considered gay since it was such a disgraceful embarrassing thing at one point. They may feel uncomfortable being a dressing room with a male turned female because it awakens their uncomfortably regarding the topic. Even looking at and hearing about such individuals make some non prejudiced men feel very strong rejections and feelings which would otherwise not be typical.

I think your wording is very loaded.

I don't think I need to be accused of being prejudiced or "transgender-phobic" for not wanting to shower with that person with the bear whose picture was posted upstream. I think I am very justified in feeling "uncomfortable" in that situation, and it is grossly unfair to others to plunge them in these situations.

↑ Scrabble123 ↓

Thu, Jun 04 2015, 10:55 am

I'm not quoting the person above me in case she meant to post anonymous. I just wanted to point out that men be experiencing something extra with regards to being around trans-gendered individuals. I also don't think that your stance in prejudiced at all. I do know that when there is a civil rights attorney who is pro everyone's rights but hear's the word gay and immediately is thrown into a furious rage that it very likely something besides his opinion & religious beliefs feeding his hysteria. I know a severely homophobic man who when he hears about concepts such as gays and trans gendered individuals says things that I would not even write here. He later always beats himself up because it comes more from his homophobia than from his true opinions on the matter. He's not alone. I was actually only referring to male homophobia as a possible extra trigger because statistically men grapple with homophobia way more than females do. I never called you or the individual homophobic or trans-gender-phobic, but I did ask the amother what part she feels would make her uncomfortable because I'm curious to better understand where she is coming from.

Last edited by Scrabble123 on Thu, Jun 04 2015, 2:01 pm; edited 1 time in total

↑ Scrabble123 ↓

Thu, Jun 04 2015, 10:57 am

DrMom wrote:

So women enrolling at Wellesley can get assigned as a roommate a man who claims he "feels like a woman?"

And women enrolling at Simmons & Bryn Mawr can get assigned a roommate who looks like the fellow in Sadie's post?

I'm not sure what the correct policies should be, but we must admit that this has an impact beyond the individual himself.

I really like what you brought up here with these policies. I wonder if its discussion belongs to a spinoff or to this thread. I'd like to see it discussed.

↑ youngishbear ↓

Thu, Jun 04 2015, 11:52 am

I think the point people are making about the shower and bathroom issue is to prove that it's not only a live-and-let-live, respecting differences situation. Putting aside religious sensibilities, and without being any kind of phobic, I would be freaked out meeting transgendered people in the "wrong" bathroom.

What I agree with is the point that by ensuring their rights, my feelings are being disregarded.

(And please let's not make comparisons between Jim Crow "sensibilities" and discomfort felt by the loss of privacy/safety with the same gender.)

There must be a better solution, even until the building codes for public places get around to requiring neutral restrooms.

↑ MagentaYenta ↓

Thu, Jun 04 2015, 1:04 pm

gp2.0 wrote:

The truth is we need neutral bathrooms for other reasons too. More and more places have neutral family bathrooms.

1) a father needs to take his preschool age daughter to the restroom
2) a woman needs to accompany her elderly or handicapped father to the restroom
Etc.

I live in a town with gender neutral restrooms, and when I worked at the Uni and OOT at the state capitol we also had gender neutral restrooms. I have no way of knowing if I ever 'shared' a restroom with a trans person.

↑ Barbara ↓

Thu, Jun 04 2015, 1:19 pm

youngishbear wrote:

How would you know that you met a transgendered person in the restroom?

I'm not attacking, I'm genuinely curious. You're in a stall. You don't see anyone else's equipment. (And if they had surgery, they would have the same equipment that you do.)

That's Laverne Cox. She's a transgendered actress. Would you really freak out if she walked into the ladies' room behind you?

Moreover, why would your safety be at risk because you shared a bathroom with a transgendered person? Do you think that a transgendered person is likely to rape or otherwise molest you, simply because she is transgendered?

black sheep

Thu, Jun 04 2015, 1:26 pm

you know, I don't think it is about rights, or live and let live, or how it affects people's lives. I think the issue is about twisting your minds to the point where one cannot tell the difference between right and wrong anymore. where society bullies people into agreeing that a man altering his body and dressing like a woman is "beautiful and brave" instead of calling perversion and depravity when you see it. the danger here, and the reason I am not ignoring this issue, is that it has become acceptable only to express opinions supporting transgenders, and totally unacceptable to express opinions against transgenderism. if you still think changing your gender is impossible and mutilating your body and wearing a wig and makeup to pretend to be a woman is mental illness or perversion, then you are intolerant and unsympathetic. if you talk about how beautiful and brave it is for a man to try and look like a woman, then you are embraced for your open thinking and sympathetic views. THIS is the issue, not the bathrooms or the rights or even the transgenders themselves, but the current culture that doesn't allow for any differences of opinion, and because of that, doesn't allow people to differentiate between right and wrong, between normalcy and mental illness, between beauty and perversion.

↑ mommy3b2c ↓

Thu, Jun 04 2015, 1:58 pm

black sheep wrote:

Thank you for expressing what I'm thinking so well. While I would obviously treat a trams gender person with respect and be kind to them. I personally believe they are either mentally ill, or perverted. I feel bad for them, but I don't applaud them. Of course, if I express my opinion I will be labeled bigoted and intolerant. That is the world we live in today.

↑ Scrabble123 ↓

Thu, Jun 04 2015, 1:59 pm

black sheep wrote:

I think that people need to realize that it is a multi complex issue with biological, psychological, social, emotional, etc. factors. Some people may biologically have developed differently or be lacking genes that would have pushed them to their regular s*xuality, while some people who are transgender may have a more psychological situation at play. It's not a "one size fits all situation" which is almost always the case with everything. Regardless, ridiculing them is inappropriate (and yes, I'm aware that you are not doing that although the title of this thread is). People should be aware of transgender individuals and their struggles as they would for any individual with struggle: those with different s*xual preferences, those with emotional disorders, those who choose a different life style or like, etc. etc. There needs to be information and education regarding everything and ignorance regarding the issue because someone dismisses its importance should not be a goal.

↑ mommy3b2c ↓

Thu, Jun 04 2015, 2:03 pm

Scrabble123 wrote:

As I mentioned before, I would never ridicule anybody for being transgender. Rather, I ridicule the people who applaud them and talk about how brave and beautiful they are.

↑ saw50st8 ↓

Thu, Jun 04 2015, 2:12 pm

black sheep wrote:

I don't personally thing transgenderism is brave, but why would you call a transgender person perverse and depraved? Why can't you just acknowledge that their struggle is really (whether mental, biological or whatnot)??

Discussing how a transgender person affects other people (such as roommates, bathroom usage etc) can be discussed without calling people depraved. This is something you (and I!) don't understand but depraved are child molesters, not people struggling with gender identity.

↑ ora_43 ↓

Thu, Jun 04 2015, 2:43 pm

black sheep wrote:

I agree that discussion on whether "s-x change" is actually possible, and on s-xuality and mental illness, should not be banned as un-PC. Too much focus on not hurting feelings can shut down important arguments (scientifically important, philosophically, or morally).

OTOH, some things really are unnecessarily hurtful.

I think if someone defines it as "perversion and depravity" that is openly unsympathetic. "I really feel for you, that must be so hard" and "you're a pervert" don't really go together.