Will Humans want to alter their bodies to become 4 legged?

↑ FranticFrummie ↓

Wed, Jun 03 2015, 5:45 pm

The difference between all other plastic surgeries, and gender reassignment, is that we have the Torah, which gives us very specific guidelines. No where does is say "Thou shalt not get a facelift." I'm not saying that this applies to non Jews, but for the sake of discussion, we can't dismiss Torah when it comes to our own people. There is a double standard here, and that adds to the complication.

As far as "opt out" goes for school, DD's school didn't let anyone know that it was an option. If you wanted to opt out, you had to specifically ask, and then they would try to talk you out of it and tell you how wonderful the zex ed classes were, etc. You really had to make a strong case before they'd let you opt out.

Even then, DD's school district psychologist was trans (or a cross dresser, I'm not sure.) She looked like a football coach in a dress and cheap wig, with very garish makeup. All the kids made fun of her because she was so incredibly, obviously born male. Other kids were really creeped out by her, and refused to use the counseling services because she made them so uncomfortable.

Adults can do what they like with their lives, but kids are still trying to sort themselves out. Aside from the basic biology of knowing how their own parts work, I don't see why they need to know much more than that in 5th grade.

↑ FranticFrummie ↓

Wed, Jun 03 2015, 5:49 pm

One more thing I wanted to add about the "opt out" issue. At DD's school, if you did opt out, you had to sit in the library with the other "weirdos", and it was a mark of shame. After the class, all the other kids would tell the opt out kids the gory details anyway, and probably embellish it for good measure. That means that opting out doesn't protect your kids from the agenda in any case, AND they're getting it second hand through their peers.

In the end, I just let DD take the class, and then did damage control at home. Better she hear it from me and the teachers, than from little Suzy and Billy in home room.

Raisin ↓

Wed, Jun 03 2015, 5:54 pm

Barbara wrote:

Presidential candidate Mike Huckabee has recently mocked transgendered people. And he's still in the hunt for the presidency. Michelle Duggar has famously conflated transgendered people with child molesters. And Huckabee has come darned close to the same, with fear mongering about children being in a public restroom with a transgendered person.

In any case, please provide at least 5 articles from reliable sources about intimidation of transgendered people from speaking out against surgery. Further, explain what "fear of reprisals" you think there are against anyone who says she regrets surgery, and provide 5 articles from reliable sources about such reprisals.

I guess that means she loves transgendered people? Because I assume she still loves her son, despite having known for years that he was a child molester.

↑ Barbara ↓

Wed, Jun 03 2015, 5:54 pm

FranticFrummie wrote:

Five percent of 12-year-olds, 10 percent of 13-year-olds and 20 percent of 14-year-olds are z3xually active. Amongst those who have not had z3x, 12 percent have touched under clothes, and 6 percent of have touched genitals.

And only 30 percent of the parents of s-xually active 14-year-olds believe their children have ever had relations.

http://www.citizenlink.com/201.....acts/

If 11 year olds are too young to learn about z3x, and about birth control, when do you think they should learn?

↑ fmt4 ↓

Wed, Jun 03 2015, 6:15 pm

Scrabble123 wrote:

What about intersex babies?

How would you define gender scientifically?

What do you feel is the difference between the x and Y chromosome and what impact they have on a child?

And how do you feel about certain species that are able to change change from male to female?

I'm asking these questions because I would like to understand your answers to them so I can better understand what you are saying.

Intersex is a totally different thing. Those babies are biologically ambiguous. I am talking about people who are unambiguously one gender at birth.
In terms of other species, I assume that that is a natural process and not something that they change artificially because they feel like they were born in the wrong body. I don't think that you can compare people and other species in this case.

↑ Scrabble123 ↓

Wed, Jun 03 2015, 6:17 pm

Several species of fish and plants are able to change s*xes. Actually, we currently have way too many female fish because chemicals in the ocean have tricked them into being female and that impacts their reproductive pattern which is not healthy for the entire ocean ecosystem. They are not switching back to males and several studies have been done to figure out why.

Anyways an individual's s*x is determined by his or her s*xual organs as well as his or her hormones. S*x is biological. We can biologically change one's s*x.

Gender of course can be seen as social - as the way society defines and interacts with someone based on his or her s*x but for this conversation when I used gender I was referring to s*x simple because I didn't want to have to type a * every time. Anyways, it was important to distinguish those two words for this explanation.

Fmt said that she doesn't believe that s*x is biological and I'm asking her why that is? If a boy is born with male organs and hormones yet behaves emotionally like a woman would fly call him female because socially he is?

Obviously s*x is biological so I'm not really sure how someone could claim s*x which is determined by a chromosome isn't biological??

↑ Scrabble123 ↓

Wed, Jun 03 2015, 6:25 pm

fmt4 wrote:

Are you following our conversation? I'm asking you what you think defines someone's s*x and how you would define the s*x of an intersex child or that of fish or plants who are able to change s*xes and genders.

I'm disputing the fact that you claim to feel that s*x isn't biological when the factors that determine one's s*x are. I'm obviously not comparing fish s*x change with that of human s*x change...

S*x refers to biological differences; chromosomes, hormonal profiles, internal and external relations organs.
Gender describes the characteristics that a society or culture delineates as masculine or feminine.

FMT: Please explain to me how an individual born male that undergoes hormone therapy as well as plastic surgery to have female like external organs is not more female than she is male? What s*x is that individual? How can you claim it's not biological?

↑ FranticFrummie ↓

Wed, Jun 03 2015, 6:27 pm

Scrabble123, you cannot honestly compare human beings to fish and plants. Only human beings were given the Torah, and you know that, so stop with the biology lectures. When you are a fish in your next life, you can change as often as you want, OK?

Again on the zex ed classes, what does the rate of teenage zexual activity and birth control have to do with this thread? Nothing, that's what. Again, it's a false comparison that derails the topic. Really, the original topic is fascinating enough on it's own, without muddying it up with strange side arguments.

I'm more interested in the issue of when people are born with ambiguous gender. IMHO, that would fall under the category of "birth defect", and I would think that halachically it would be appropriate to do surgery, just as you would for webbed fingers or a clubbed foot.

It's when gender is very clear from a medical viewpoint, and you're talking about someone's mental perception of self, that's when it gets difficult. I'll have to leave that to the rabbinical medical ethics experts. As someone who takes antidepressants, I know that I wouldn't appreciate having someone tell me "That's just how G-d made you, so get over it and get on with your life."

↑ Scrabble123 ↓

Wed, Jun 03 2015, 6:28 pm

FF you obviously were not following my conversation with fmt. I'm not comparing fish to human s*x change. I'm proving to her that s*x is biological which she claims it is not. I'm asking her on what grounds she is basing that baseless, inaccurate claim that she made a few pages back. I'm going to post the conversation below so no one else is confused.

fmt4 wrote:

I am not disgusted and what my religion says doesn't really make such a big difference to me in this matter. I just have trouble believing that plastic surgery and hormones can change someone from one gender to another. And I don't want to be labeled as a bad person by society because of that.

I also doubt that fmt was using the word gender with regards to the true use of the word and was excluding s*x which is why I'm asking her to explain what defines s*x.

Scrabble123 wrote:

What makes someone one gender over the other IYO?

fmt4 wrote:

I think that if you are born one gender that that is what you are for life, no matter how much you may feel like the other gender. But I feel great sympathy for those that feel that way, though unfortunately I don't think it can be changed.

Scrabble123 wrote:

What about intersex babies?

How would you define gender and s*x scientifically?

What do you feel is the difference between the x and Y chromosome and what impact they have on a child?

And how do you feel about certain species that are able to change from male to female or vice versa?

I'm asking these questions because I would like to understand your answers to them so I can better understand what you are saying.

amother

↑ Lime ↓

Wed, Jun 03 2015, 6:35 pm

MagentaYenta wrote:

Oh so I get to buy the book and prove your claims? LoL

Um, no. I read the relevant pages--for free--on google docs. I did not read the entire book. I do not know if the rest of it is relevant to your question.

You can also google "s*x change regret". You will get many hits. You can click on Barbara's link.

Choices, choices.

↑ MagentaYenta ↓

Wed, Jun 03 2015, 6:47 pm

amother wrote:

When I get the time I'll play dueling citations with you if that's what floats your boat. But right now I'm on a bit of a schedule. But if we do play dueling citations, I want you to actually read my citations in their entirety and not use flip page views from Amazon. That's just sloppy research.

↑ FranticFrummie ↓

Wed, Jun 03 2015, 7:08 pm

Scrabble123 wrote:

Something else to point out is that transgender male to female individuals are not yet able to become pregnant but may be able to in the future which would make them not just biological more female but totally female. Once that doubt is removed, fmt, will you feel differently about biological s*xes?

I'm not trying to be snarky here, I'm trying to understand where you're going with this. Would the corollary to the underscored, mean that a woman who has cancer, and needs a complete hysterectomy and bilateral mastectomy become someone "not" totally female? Can femaleness (or maleness) be added and removed by degrees? How does that work on a driver's license, or in the Torah for that matter? Scratching Head

↑ Scrabble123 ↓

Wed, Jun 03 2015, 7:16 pm

FranticFrummie wrote:

Why would that individual's removal of simply those organs for medical reasons without additional male hormone therapy or plastic surgery make her any less female? I guess a person can be biologically female but have a male gender when you apply the social and role aspects of what gender is. You're raising an interesting point that would make for a great discussion, especially with individuals more versed in the topic. When a male who wants to be female undergoes extensive hormone therapy and plastic surgery but simply is not able to become pregnant because science isn't up to that yet I'd still consider him biologically female wouldn't you?

↑ FranticFrummie

Wed, Jun 03 2015, 7:26 pm

This is the first time I've ever had to think about what I could consider a person who's had reassignment. All of my trans friends have called themselves "trans", and not insisted on being considered stam male or female. I use him/her pronouns as needed, just as a social courtesy, not because I have some deep seated belief either way about the maleness or femaleness of my friends.

I don't take a black and white view on this, which of course makes it harder for me to give a good "argument" on the issue. Personally, I am pretty fluid in my orientation. I tend to like or not like people based on who they ARE, not "'what" they are. Things like gender, race, height, weight - those are all minor details to me. (DH is actually a bit upset that I told him that I'm extremely turned on by his intelligence. He thought that it was a physical attraction, and I was like "meh, whatever." Jeez, some people just can't take a compliment!)

Sorry, I derailed the thread in which I just complained about derailing! I just wanted to give some background, so you knew where I was coming from.

amother

↑ Lime ↓

Wed, Jun 03 2015, 7:39 pm

MagentaYenta wrote:

I'm a bit confused. You asked for a book.

Specifically, you wrote, "If you have the names of any books or links to individual testimonies of the 20% of who regret their surgery I'll love to read them. I'm not afraid of hearing the whys of their individual choices and I welcome learning."

So I linked you to a book on the topic.

Good night.

↑ sequoia ↓

Wed, Jun 03 2015, 8:00 pm

Of course some will regret it. That's true of all choices. 50% of people regret they got married. Does that mean marriage is bad?

This argument -- that 20% of people who transitioned regretted it -- does not hold water. By definition, ANY decision will include people who are happy with their choice and people who regret it.

↑ MagentaYenta ↓

Wed, Jun 03 2015, 8:09 pm

amother wrote:

Actually that was my error. I had hoped you had actually read the books you were suggesting.