Frum Survivor Sima tells her story publicly for the 1st time

↑ Jeanette

Mon, Mar 30 2015, 12:55 pm

amother wrote:

And some people are sick and tired of being in the pedos camp by bringing awareness that false accusations happen and that it is a reality and that there is no proof beyond a reasonable doubt that this occurred. This doesn't mean that we support predators. And that we are sick people who are "obviously" best fiends and close family to the accused. By the way, I don't have an opinion in this case. I am not discrediting her story or supporting it, because I am humble enough to say I DON'T KNOW.

Maybe it takes humility simply to listen to her story without trying to discount or discredit it.

It had the ring of truth. I am not seeing any possible benefit to her from coming forward. None. She is taking a huge, huge risk, and her family has already suffered for this.

She herself said that the public apathy and skepticism was worse than the abuse itself.

also this story (allegedly) happened 10 years ago. She hasn't had any contact with him for 10 years. So she's storing up vindictiveness for 10 years waiting until now to destroy his life? Whatever for? What anger could she possibly bear towards him for this long if her story is not true?

↑ fmt4

Mon, Mar 30 2015, 12:57 pm

amother wrote:

Uh no. You didn't just suggest that false accusations happen. You specifically made an outrageous implication that this woman might have made up this story because of a war between chabad houses. That's not humble. That's sick. And points to you having some kind of stake in the situation, since someone who had no prior knowledge wouldnt know about anything having to do with that. Or you are just really creative at thinking up ways to discredit people who are abused. Is it a hobby of yours? Either way, it's disturbing.

amother

↑ Violet ↓

Mon, Mar 30 2015, 1:03 pm

fmt4 wrote:

I'm a different amother. I am not discrediting her the way the first amother is, but if you say you don't accept what she says as undeniable truth or you say you don't know, you are accused of being a pedo lover! That is not ok, either. Also, Just because something "rings true", doesn't mean that it is. Again , I am not saying that she is lying. Personally, I feel it is likely true, but from experience I know it is possible to be false accusations since all we have is her word.

amother

↑ Violet ↓

Mon, Mar 30 2015, 1:06 pm

Jeanette wrote:

In the story I'm talking about, it is close to 20 years. Over all those years the accuser has treated the accused normally (as much as someone with BPD can).

amother

↑ Violet

Mon, Mar 30 2015, 1:36 pm

greenfire wrote:

many of you sound like you'd rather be in denial ... go ahead shove your heads back under the sand ...

but rest assured these pieces of scum will be out there molesting and raping another victim but this time you will be an accessory to the abuse !!!

Again, no one here is saying that it is not true. Some of us are saying that there is a possibility for it to not be true. We all encourage anyone who has connection to him or know anyone who has a child that has any connection with to do their hishtadlus and protect their children first, then do their research and see what they should about it. (At least I am saying this, can't talk for everyone). But YOU are in denial that false accusations don't happen.

amother

Chocolate

Mon, Mar 30 2015, 1:58 pm

As a sister of a sibling who was abused, and helped by JCW, JCW is not so honest. I know they have helped many but they have also overstepped their bounds.

The reason for the site being closed for almost a year had nothing to do with finances. It had to do with someone falsely accusing another as an act of revenge. The case was thrown out of court. The accused's family sued and won in court for defamation. There was proof of the innocence. No one believed it. It could not have happened. I won't go into further detail as this is not the place.

There was a second case of false accusations by a special needs boy. When it was revealed through police interrogations to be false, JCW removed the name without any apology for the false accusations and shame. That mans reputation has been damaged and can never be fixed. He left town hoping to get a new start elsewhere.

↑ Learning

Mon, Mar 30 2015, 4:31 pm

We can't have his discussion about sima when some people are hiding behind amother. Obviously some of them are connected to the people involved. The fact that she stood there and told her story proved to me that she is saying the truth. You can't make up that kind of stuff because there are others who were molested and the rabbis believed her. You can't just come out and make this thing up there are a lot of people involved and nobody came and said that they know this guy and he is clean or even not proven guilty. The opposite is happening people know him and said that they are not surprised. Like you can't make up the story with Cosby. There are too many people involved. It's not possible.

amother

↑ Burgundy

Mon, Mar 30 2015, 5:07 pm

amother wrote:

No I'm not a man.
I don't think I come across as one in any which way, its amazing how ppl here jump to conclusions so quickly without giving it thought.
Everything I wrote I thought through first.
I admit, I may have been wrong though.
Thank G-d I never actually had to deal with a molester. They are ill and they need to be taken care of and off the streets. I thought I made that clear clear clear.
Maybe every single victim really is 100% innocent.
Who knows.
I can be wrong, I hope I'm wrong, and I'll try not to come to conclusions on matters I'm not fully familiar with.

But the way ppl attack here is incredible.

The way ppl twist what mothers here say is saddening as well.

Nothing of my post was aimed at Sima's case except that I was happy she came out and spoke up.

The rest was based on overall observations of victimization, but again, dear me, I've been unanimously voted wrong. That's OK. I can retract my opinion.

Didnt you write that you were molested????????

↑ black sheep ↓

Mon, Mar 30 2015, 5:52 pm

amother wrote:

Tx for understanding, not judging and explaining.
I get your point. And that is / was my point too. We need to protect our kids. Educate them ! The schools haveto do their part too.

Can you explain to me what the blaming and shaming does? It doesn't get them off the street or into program! There r 1,000s of them around. Tell ur child don't go next to abc..... It's never ending, u'll never know all of them.... U need God to protect them.

If the victim wants to publish her story, kol h'kovod, but what is her aim her gain? (Recovery u only get by speaking to the proper ppl. )

I am working my program, and I don't forgive my abuser, but I got the sense of acceptance.

why are you working the program? I never heard of victims needing the 12 steps. it is the molesters and addicts that need to work the program.

amother

↑ Aubergine

Mon, Mar 30 2015, 5:53 pm

amother wrote:

Didnt you write that you were molested????????

No that was a different amother.
I was the mother that watched false accusations occur to teachers that girls hated and therefore realized the same thing could have happened if students want to falsely accuse a teacher of molesting if they hate them enough.
I'm the one that (gasp) found out my 12 year students were posing in lingerie and sending out to guys. This led me to terribly say that not all girls are innocent, which I later retracted since too many ppl feel that a victim is always innocent and feel that I'm a mental case because I inferred that.

I thank G-d wouldn't know as I have never been in a situation to warrant that knowledge. And I do know ppl will overstep bounds even if someone isn't dressed provacotively.

↑ greenfire

Mon, Mar 30 2015, 6:20 pm

amother wrote:

Excuse me. Just because a girl says x, y,z happened to her does not mean they did. I am not saying that something did not happen but come on.. I was believing her until she named the four rabbis.. who by the way have a halachic responsibility here. Also, there was a territorial war of Chabad houses between her family and the chabad house of the abuser.. so she might be coming out with this to help her parents in that way. It's not hard to make up stories. Kids these days are not as innocent as they seem.

Raisin wrote:

if there was a territorial war, why did her parents hire the abuser to work for them? Or did the territorial war occur AFTER he was accused and fired?

It wouldn't matter if it were before or after - because chabad house wars - [no it's not a new tv series] would chase away congregants rather than to mekarev them & their point would be moot

nyc123

Mon, Mar 30 2015, 8:45 pm

amother wrote:

You actually are providing arguments that attempt to discredit her story and haven't provided any arguments for it's credibility, so you are not as "in the middle" as you make yourself out to be. There are a lot of things that we "don't know" - honestly, pretty much everything when you think about it. Philosophers and scientists have pointed out that we can't even be sure of what we experience firsthand with our own senses, as they can play tricks on us (e.g. a straight stick appearing bent when it's underwater). So to say that you "don't know," I can understand, thinking about it in this light. The same way people say they "don't know" if Hashem truly exists because there is no undeniable proof. But we humans have something called a frontal lobe in the brain that allows us to take in all the information and evidence from various sources around us, synthesize it, and make a judgment using logic and analysis- with this, we decide what to BELIEVE. The key word is - believe.

Considering knowledge I have regarding the information provided by Sima, the manner in which it was presented, the consistency of her story, etc (many other good points already mentioned in this thread), as well as knowledge I have regarding characteristics and motives of people who falsely accuse information, I am able to say with a great deal of certainty, that I BELIEVE that Sima is telling the truth.

I highly encourage you to exercise the power of your brain to try to figure out what to believe, rather than just blindly stating "I don't know" and playing devils advocate "just because" no one can ever know anything for sure.

↑ black sheep

Tue, Mar 31 2015, 1:50 am

well, this is the thing, the time and place that you say something counts. so if you are hiring a man to be a rebbe in your school, and you hear a rumor that he molested a child, that would be a good time to say perhaps that child lied, let me look into this further and see what really happened. but we already clarified that the amothers here are not personally involved with OPs abuser. so what we have instead is a survivor telling her story, not making accusations but telling her story, and some posters are coming here and saying, how do we know it's true? in this case, the only reason to question the victim is to further abuse her. there is nothing riding on the validity of her comments. so to come to this conversation with doubts and questions about her story, along with anecdotal stories of wrongly accused molesters, is hurtful to all victims and further abuses them, and Sima said in her speech that the worst abuse was the doubters and questioners.

imorethanamother

Tue, Mar 31 2015, 1:59 am

Who are all these anonymous Amothers? What on earth?

Let's state the facts:

1) None of the four Rabbis in beis din were in any doubt as to what happened to this woman. They all agree - and you can ask any one of them - this girl was legitimately molested.

So anyone who is piping up here with "how do we know he did it?" The Beis Din has concluded that he, indeed, did it. If you believe in any sort of judicial process, this was done and has concluded that he was guilty.

2) Sima was advised to go to the police. She didn't want to go. She, in fact, insisted that the Rabbis not know who she was. She admits this in the video. At the time she wanted her anonymity, and she didn't want to face the judicial system. These were her choices, and no one blames her for these choices, but believing that Rabbis are somehow going to lock him away was a bit naive.

3) That being said, there was no real attempt by the beis din to address the problem. They concluded that the molester did in fact molest Sima, but they erroneously believed that therapy and love, care and acceptance would somehow change this man. It didn't and it doesn't. One Rabbi on this Bein Din still believes in therapy, as if therapy somehow removes a yetzer hara from a person. It doesn't. That is why it is good that Sima spoke up to show others how the Beis Din still thinks, and why that is wrong. I cannot say whether all the Rabbis on this beis din still believe in therapy, but at least one does.

JCW - should they have allowed the forum to shame Rabbis? Rabbis who did not molest Sima? That is the real debate here, one that no one can really answer. On one hand, shaming perpetuators of this abuse is the biggest impetus to change, and a necessary evil. On the other hand, the Rabbis named did not - and would not - get the opportunity to say their side of the story. They could be wrong, and I think they were, but everyone should have the right to defend themselves, and they weren't given a chance to, but condemned in absentia. That is what so many could not get behind. At least say the accusations to their face - and let them respond in kind.

14 years ago is also a long time. Let's remember that the Kolko story only came out years later, and it was really that story that blew up the Orthodox world into taking greater initiatives into training our Rabbis and beis din about how to handle s-xual predators. Is that a great excuse? Of course not. Aiding and abetting an abuser is wrong. But it's possible that they were still under the misguided opinion that they should protect the man instead of outing him, when after the Kolko story that approach has been abandoned. And finally, Rabbis are people, and people can make mistakes. People can change their mind about how to approach things.

amother

↑ Powderblue ↓

Tue, Mar 31 2015, 9:35 am

ora_43 wrote:

As harsh as it is, better to have a dozen innocent people in jail, than to have thousands of dangerous rapists running around free.

That's idiotic because not one of those dozen innocent people in jail is getting a single rapist off the street. They are innocent, remember?

nywife wrote:

To all the amothers here who are stating that they don't believe Simas story, let me ask you this. Would you leave your 5 year old daughter alone in a room with the accused? If you answered no (which I hope you will) you may want to reconsider your stance.

Heck no! Because a story like this puts enough doubt in my mind to not risk it. Which is the danger in such stories getting out (when they are not true). Accusers are fully aware of this. His life is pretty much over. Anyone who hears this story wont trust him around their kids even if he is innocent and I'm guessing many wouldn't want to hire him or let their kids be friends with his etc. It is very very damaging. And that is ok if the story is true (even though it is unfair to his children/family etc it's part of life with a sick family member). It is not ok when we don't know for sure that it is.

black sheep wrote:

No, the reason to question her is to make sure it is true before destroying a mans life. If he is innocent he doesn't deserve any of this. Like I said before, so far all we have is her word and the fact that she said the 4 rabbies believed her and sent him away. We don't even know for sure they did in fact believe her and this mans life is already irreparably damaged. That is a reason to question her because if he were innocent and she was making this story up we would need to restore his name.

And before everyone jumps on me to say I'm clearly a family member or friend of his it doesn't make a gooddamn difference. I'm not saying he's innocent. I'm saying we have to consider all angles before coming to a conclusion and that has nothing to do with being related or not (still not ftr). Forget the fact that I'm posting anonymously. It's irrelevant. I'm the same color I've been all thread. And the points would be valid regardless of whether or not I was his brother, father or son (cuz apparently I'm a man too). He's innocent until proven guilty like anyone in this country accused of any crime. I don't know why we keep forgetting that here.