Is the school right?

↑ amother ↓

Wed, Sep 03 2014, 11:20 am

OP here... so I just spoke to the Rosh Yeshiva. Nothing. I mean he spoke to me at length and was very polite but there is nothing he will do. His basic message was that they only have 6 boys that are bar mitzvahed, several of which are not "mature" or "reliable" enough to be there for minyan, and the Rebbes are not there that early, and even if they were, cannot miss davening if the boys do not show up to make a minyan.

I asked if the school could require them to be at a specific minyan at a Bais Midrash right nearby but he felt that he couldn't ask that of them because some of the boys are "immature" and need supervision and would be disruptive.

The onus was placed on the parents alone, and that was that.

All I know is that my 12 year old and his friends are totally psyched that they get to come at 9:00 instead of 7:50. And no, my ds is not immature enough to be disruptive during minyan, but is also not mature enough to commit to going to a random minyan with strangers on his own at 6:30 in the morning.

I am so disappointed and let down. Despite the points he made I cannot believe that there is nothing to be done.

↑ Barbara ↓

Wed, Sep 03 2014, 11:30 am

amother wrote:

Well, I do have one idea for you. Right now, he can count on maybe 3 boys towards a minyan on a regular basis. So you need 7 more. Have the fathers of the pre-bar mitvah boys commit to attend the school minyan on a regular basis, so that there will be enough men.

It should get better as the year goes on, and there are more boys past bar mitzvah age.

↑ PinkFridge ↓

Wed, Sep 03 2014, 11:30 am

I kind of feel for the principal. He's got to realize that the school isn't stable and isn't heading in a good direction if they can't accommodate some basic needs. I'm sure there are many factors involved in their having got to this point. Knowing the little I do from what you say I wouldn't begin to point fingers. (Then again, I wouldn't even if I did know IYKWIM.) Hatzlacha and hugs.

proudmother1 ↓

Wed, Sep 03 2014, 3:03 pm

amother wrote:

I am quite upset and looking for some basic reactions to this....

Ds is going into 8th grade in a small school, with about 7 other boys in his class. Most are already barmitzvahed, but a couple, including ds, are not yet.

There has always been a minyan at the school, 6,7,and 8th grade boys were required to come at 8 rather than 9 (when the school day starts), to daven. I got a letter in the mail saying that this year there is no minyan, because there aren't enough boys to make one up (the letter was also worded to imply that many of the boys are unreliable and late anyway), and they should go elsewhere to daven before school, and just show up at 9 for class.

I am very upset by this. Dh leaves very very early for work. I have a house full of younger kids and I know that all that will happen is that ds will just not daven. Or if I am on top of him he will daven quickly and half-heartedly by himself.

Am I wrong in feeling that even if boys have been late it is still the school's responsibility to require attendance for minyan and require them to be on time? To me that is just careless and lazy. I went to a coed high school where half the student body were not from shomer shabbos homes but we were required to be there ON TIME for minyan or there were repercussions! Am I wrong to expect the school to have organized and required davening for the boys, even if technically there is no minyan?? I feel like the message here is a very poor one.

Any opinions, ideas or suggestions are very welcome.

Why don't they just cancel the math class too, since a few boys skip it anyways?
....I'm just trying to make a point. I can only suggest that the parents get together and firmly request this from the school. Perhaps sign a petition of some sort?

↑ Barbara ↓

Wed, Sep 03 2014, 3:24 pm

proudmother1 wrote:

Apples and orangutans.

The teacher can teach math even if only one student attends.

The school has only 6 boys who can be counted in a minyan. On the best possible day, you need to find 4 men to attend. If the school can only count on 3 of the boys to attend, it needs 7. Really, it needs 8 or 9, because of the risk that a boy is sick or an adult can't make it. You can't have a minyan with fewer than 10 males over the age of bar mitzvah.

↑ amother ↓

Wed, Sep 03 2014, 8:08 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

Op here. I think this is probably very true unfortunately. After this I have no plans to enroll my almost preschooler for next year and will definitivelyb be looking for another school for him.

I feel very let down, to me this is a direct message from the school saying we don't value out students or their educational or spiritual development at all.

↑ PinkFridge ↓

Wed, Sep 03 2014, 9:08 pm

amother wrote:

Does your community have other options?

↑ DrMom

Thu, Sep 04 2014, 3:01 am

amother wrote:

Thanks again for taking the time to reply.... I am gearing up to make a call to the school.... but I will try calling the other parents first, as was suggested earlier. Also, I totally agree that boys who do want a minyan to daven should not be forced to daven without one. And that the responsibility cannot be totally on the school that parents need to be responsible too.

But this seems so way over the top to me. What if the boys were late for gemara class in the morning? Would I get a letter saying "Our gemara shiur has been cancelled. The boys are not so interested. Send your boys at 11:30 for chumash." Why is tefilla any different??

I feel so bad about this, like my ds is being cheated, like we are being cheated. Like they are sending a message... your boys are not worth our effort.

Agreed.

↑ amother ↓

Thu, Sep 04 2014, 4:04 am

New amother here.
I am in EY and my son goes to a very chareidi cheder with around 30 boys in the class, and we have the exact same issue!
Because of when boys start cheder, most of the boys in 8th grade are only 12 - I think there are currently 7 boys already bar mitzva.

The boys are supposed to come at 8.30 after minyan.

I also had plenty of other ideas - to me the simplest would be the rebbe davenning together with the boys at a designated minyan (there are many shuls and minyanim here), under his supervision. But that isn't happening. I also thought they could pay a few men to commit to daven with the cheder minyan until the issue is solved (not till Cheshvan or Kislev apparently). But that isn't happening either.

What I have done is decide with my son what time he needs to daven to have time to daven and eat before starting (different time for Mon/Thu and other days) and we decided together that is the 'official' time he has to leave. He takes breakfast with him to eat once he gets to cheder.

I also have/had issues with him getting up, so I already have a chart for being ready on time - he has to be out to make the minyan we agreed on.

I also think this is ridiculous. The cheder is simply throwing off its responsibility and it has the two options I mentioned above, aside from getting a number of rebbes to make up the minyan - which they aren't willing to do either. But since there is no way they are going to listen (this particular rebbe has family connections to the hanhala, ugh, although he is otherwise very good), I have to take the initiative as a parent to do the best for my son, even though I think they are wrong.

FranticFrummie

Thu, Sep 04 2014, 4:10 am

amother wrote:

You're in Israel, in a Charedi school, and you can't get a minyan? shock

That's just crazy!

↑ proudmother1

Thu, Sep 04 2014, 9:31 am

Barbara wrote:

Barabara, Were you trying to make a connection between apples and orangutans? Because Fruit makes up 65–90% of the orangutan diet LOL

The point I was trying to make, which I should have possibly been clearer about is that parents that choose to send their children to Jewish schools, and pay for it of course, want more than a math class. They can get that in public school for free.
I believe in Torah Umada, Torah first. So the school has a responsibility to provide a minyan for these boys. They can have faculty join the minyan....they can come up with their own creative ways to solve this problem. Just like they solve their problems in other areas of the school. Running a school has its challenges, and it should not be the parents' responsibility.
This mother pays for a product. That product is an education according to Jewish halachos, customs, academia etc. End of story for her.

↑ Barbara ↓

Thu, Sep 04 2014, 10:03 am

proudmother1 wrote:

Barabara, Were you trying to make a connection between apples and orangutans? Because Fruit makes up 65–90% of the orangutan diet LOL

And my point is that its not likely that the school can come up with a solution. There are not enough boys for a minyan, and no matter how much everyone screams about how evil the school is, its not going to change a thing.

The parents, however, can come up with a solution.

If there are 8 to 10 boys in each of the grades in the minyan (6,7,8), then if their fathers attended the minyan once or twice a week, there would be enough people for a minyan.

But no one seemed to like that idea.

They can appeal to the community at large. It doesn't seem that there is a local minyan at 8 am (or why would OP be so insistent that she can't make her son go to 6:30 minyan), which is a good time for retirees. Invite them to participate, to make a minyan.

Or they can do those things on Mondays and Thursdays only, then let the kids daven without a minyan the other days.

Or they can pay teachers to come in an hour early. Because the solution of "they should come in early out of the goodness of their hearts" isn't realistic.

↑ PinkFridge

Thu, Sep 04 2014, 10:20 am

amother wrote:

Did you mean school options or minyanim? Minyanim, yes, schools, not so much Sad

Wow. This is tough.
I'm not trying to play 20 questions to figure out where you are but I wonder if your community is coming or going. If the latter, and you want to get out, I hope things fall into place for you to do so, quickly and easily.

↑ amother ↓

Thu, Sep 04 2014, 6:56 pm

The principal doesn't have an idea? If there are 6 boys above bar mitzvah, you have 3 teachers. And the principal! You only need a majority to daven for it "to count". That's why minyanim often ask for a 10th man to just stand there. Not ideal but better than 6 adults to not daven! So if the rebbeim don't like davening there and usually make the 6:30, they can still go.