Lakewood - anyone still school-less?

↑ amother ↓

Tue, Sep 02 2014, 9:46 am

amother wrote:

I have "stepped foot" in Lakewood before, and I found the people that I met to be delightful. This is not about Lakewood. Its about people like you who prolong this galus by separating Jews into categories. US - the REAL kollel families, the REAL frum ones, and then all the rest of klal Israel, who, in your mind's eye, look up to you so much that they try to imitate you, but fail. You treat them like scum, with a cloak of holiness. It is arrogance at its best. G-d does not consider you better than "the rest of them". It is this attitude that is at the heart of the breakdown of klal yisrael.
you didn't defend anyone. You took an opportunity - someoneone else's pain - to display yourself as the cream of the crop.

Dearie, I am not a kollel wife and never was. But I HAVE been made to feel like a third class citizen by those who have the financial ability to be in kollel, even while maintaining a lifestyle I could never afford.
Please stop being petty. You totally misunderstood my post. I was not attacking anyone, I was defending myself and people like me.
I do sometimes let my kids watch a (gasp) video, and my husband is clean shaven. There are those Bugaboo -pushing kollel wives who would never send to Bnos Penina because of "permissive" parents like me. I'm trying to say that there are real kollel families who DO allow their children to play with mine.
It is exactly the classification of "types" and schools that you're accusing me of, which I'm trying to argue against.
Don't you understand???

↑ June

Tue, Sep 02 2014, 10:02 am

amother wrote:

someone read waaaay too much into a simple statement. defensive much?

↑ amother ↓

Tue, Sep 02 2014, 3:54 pm

amother wrote:

My point exactly. I was not trying to give anyone an inferiority complex.

You see? You can't help yourself, but expose the real views behind what you are saying. That is why I said :
I have "stepped foot" in Lakewood before, and I found the people that I met to be delightful. This is not about Lakewood. Its about people like you who prolong this galus by separating Jews into categories. US - the REAL kollel families, the REAL frum ones, and then all the rest of klal Israel, who, in your mind's eye, look up to you so much that they try to imitate you, but fail. You treat them like scum, with a cloak of holiness. It is arrogance at its best. G-d does not consider you better than "the rest of them". It is this attitude that is at the heart of the breakdown of klal yisrael.
you didn't defend anyone. You took an opportunity - someone else's pain - to display yourself as the cream of the crop.

Why do you think that you are giving anyone an inferiority complex?

For the record - I live VERY far from Lakewood, and I have nothing to do with this lifestyle that you describe. There is absolutely no defensiveness from my part, as I have nothing to defend. I do not view this way of life as superior, and it would never occur to me to be apologetic about my own life's choices, which are far from yours. We all have our own ways. And yes there is more than one way to serve God.
What gets to me more and more is the hate that goes around amongst fellow Jews. It is quite the common denominator in so many of these posts. Someone reaches out in pain - all they want is some support - and they get replies oh so fraught with ulterior motives. It shows right through.
Where do expressions such as these come from?
*Not bugaboo-pushing kollel wives but genuine "being happy with less" families.
*Not "frum image" but genuine frum.
STOP THE HATE!
There is a reason that there is a "schools crisis" and a "shidduch crisis" and and "OTD crisis"
They all stem from the same roots. The need for the human being to feel good by making their neighbors worse than them.
I am calling on all of you - STOP THE HATE! STOP THE BETTER THAN THOU ATTITUDE!
Simple.
"Like" this post if you agree. Let's have a real resolution.

↑ ora_43

Tue, Sep 02 2014, 4:02 pm

Amother, I think you're being way too harsh with other amother (also, can someone put their text in color or something? getting a little confusing here). I can see how her post can be interpreted as arrogant, although I think you're ignoring important context.

But there are enough people who do way worse things that it seems like overkill to me to accuse someone of "using someone else's pain" and "being at the heart of the breakdown of klal yisrael" just for unintentionally coming across as arrogant on a message board. OK, it sounded bad, but IMHO it's not nice at this point to focus on her poor wording. Next time she won't insinuate anything bad about bugaboo-pushing moms I'm sure Wink

↑ amother ↓

Tue, Sep 02 2014, 4:09 pm

ora_43 wrote:

This is not about calling anyone to the carpet for "unintentionally coming across as arrogant." As a matter of fact, she is "amother" and this isn't personal, per her own wishes. This message was posted by me on a public message board, for everyone to see, and hopefully walk away with a resolve to stop the hate amongst klal yisrael in whatever way they can - honestly.
There is a "culture" of hate amongst us. Just read the posts here.

↑ Simple1 ↓

Tue, Sep 02 2014, 4:19 pm

amother wrote:

This comment is another example of what I am saying.
Is anyone on imamother capable of distinguishing "frum image" from "genuine frumkeit"?
If yes, please explain to me in an intelligent way, what your criteria is?

I think we may all be on the same page, but you're not seeing it. My point is that no one should be concerned with anyone's frumkeit level except their own. It should not be about image, therefore there should be no criteria.

So the Bugaboo comment was probably judgmental, but maybe it was her way of describing people who are obsessed with their image. (Not saying that people with Bugaboos are like this, just trying to understand what she meant.)

↑ Emotional ↓

Tue, Sep 02 2014, 5:51 pm

amother wrote:

Even if what you are saying has merit - and it definitely does - you come across as though you're throwing a tantrum. The other amother must have pushed some.very fragile buttons for you. I also think she could have made her point without the rhetoric but it seems most of us here got her point and knew what she she meant.
Elitist attitudes are definitely not getting us out of galus, but neither is the inability to be mevater. Let's not be so nitpicky and exacting.

↑ amother ↓

Tue, Sep 02 2014, 6:02 pm

Emotional wrote:

I have no right to be mevater on the pain of klal yisrael, and the shechina. This issue is obviously not very important to you.

Your response reminds of a story. My son was hit by his teacher to the point that he had bruises. When I showed it to the principal he said, " Your are right. Teachers should not never hit children like that. But the question is whether you are 60% right, or 40% right".

You admit the problem. But you are "nitpicking" (to use your own term) whether the response was too harsh. BTW, I haven't seen the offender come out with an apology at all. We should condemn such behavior from her and others. I maintain - there is no place for hate amongst us.

↑ Emotional ↓

Tue, Sep 02 2014, 6:20 pm

amother wrote:

Yes it's important to me. But we can accomplish more in terms of abolishing hate by lessening our own hate. Kind gentle words accomplish more than venom does.
I don't know where the OP went (maybe she had to leave her computer for the day) but I know that if it were me I would have been scared off by your explosive responses. You even got nasty with me because I didn't agree with everything you said.

↑ amother ↓

Tue, Sep 02 2014, 7:26 pm

Emotional wrote:

The proof is in the pudding. Your kind and gentle words don't seem to have prevented the hatred that circles amongst us. In our schools, in our communities, on these boards. I will not back off. STOP THE HATING. That is where I draw the line. Nowhere else. Hate is Hate. I dont care what kind of words you use. Your "gentleness" in defending obvious wrong is hypocritical. You can stick your head into a hole in the ground if you choose. I don't.
To me, a jew is a jew. I love them all. Litvish/Yeshivish/MO/Chassidish/Lubavitch - I don't care. We are all equally valuable in God's eyes, he makes no distinction. He doesn't care about our bugaboos.
(I apologize if I left out any of the denominations...I can't keep track, It's not that important to me.)
We don't need Vaads or anything similiar. What we need to accept each other as God wants us to, with the full understanding that our own worth is not judged by worth of others, in either direction.

↑ amother ↓

Tue, Sep 02 2014, 10:18 pm

amother wrote:

Why in the world should there be a "lottery" for the slot's and how would that help anything?

This is not one giant system, not even close.

Most parent's who send to AT or Bais Rivkah would not even dream of sending to Bais Faiga.

Most parent's who send to Bnos Brocha would not even dream of sending to Bnos Deveroah.

Most parent's who send to Bnos Melech would not even think of sending to bnos Peninah.

And will the girl's going to a Chassidish Bais Yackov go to a Litvish one?

You can throw out "it should be like this or like that" however the fact is that it has to be realisitc, doable.

I send to Bnos Brocha and would dream of sending to Bnos Devorah (except I chose not to) or Bais Faiga... I wonder where you got your little "hierarchy" from. And I wonder what TYPE a Bnos Brocha parent is that I'm missing... Hmmm

↑ Chayalle ↓

Wed, Sep 03 2014, 9:24 am

amother wrote:

ITA. Most of the "divisions" among the Litvishe schools are very fluid....so yes, for the most part (even here there can be exceptions!) a Bnos Bina parent (for those out of Lakewood, this is a chassidish school) would not sent to Bais Faiga because they want a Chassidish education for their girls..and vice versa. If I was a parent applying to school and I were told that the Chassidish school has slots, but that I have to change my dress and my child's dress to conform...it would make no sense.

However among the Litvishe schools the differences are not as big. I don't know where that poster gets those ideas from.

On a positive note, I was thrilled beyond words when a little girl in my neighborhood was accepted to two schools last week. I wish she would've been accepted 6 months ago. I'm so glad she started the school year in a uniform with a Morah....many neighbors pushed for her, and it made my week when she was accepted.