Lakewood - anyone still school-less?

↑ PinkFridge ↓

Thu, Aug 21 2014, 12:07 pm

chaiz wrote:

What is the issue with the parents already? Obviously if they are not interested in following rules, I can I understand. But if they are willing to comply with certain basic rules, why not accept a Jewish child? Just because parents do not fit a mold makes them less good?

Which is why G-d also created OOT. I have to confess to not fully appreciating the mindsets myself, and sometimes engage in alternative history, as in, what if we would have stayed in the big city we started in. But I have to admit that it's not so simple, and if it ever was simpler, after all these years of an entrenched system it's that much more complicated.

And as a shout out to a few posters: I can fully believe that there are good and good-hearted people working behind the scenes. Thanks for mentioning them.

↑ amother ↓

Thu, Aug 21 2014, 12:24 pm

The problem why noone is opening up less yeshivish school is not a money issue it's a power issue. If u want respect in your school and the rabbonim to look up to u u need to open up a yeshivish school. The schools that are being opened up that are yeshivish and exclusive are not being opened up by yeshivish people. One school owner who opened a school five years ago that u can't get into was a car salesman before never even learned in kollel. He just learned the trick I want respect and I want everyone to run after me open up a yeshivish school and be exclusive.

The working parents are the one with money. The askanim in Lakewood are working not kollel people don't twist t around. The people in this town with theist power are the school owners. That's part of the reason why lakewood has a problem on the first place because schools are not being opened up for the right reasons.

↑ Tova ↓

Thu, Aug 21 2014, 12:27 pm

The Lakewood school are owned, ie, not non-profit organizations? There is no board of directors?

↑ naturalmom5 ↓

Thu, Aug 21 2014, 12:32 pm

In synopsis is it fair to say there are 3 choices

1 accept all the kids into current schools , farfollin

2 open more schools that aren't hardcore yeshivish

3 put full page ads in all Jewish papers
DESPITE The HYPE , Lakewood is a mean vicious place don't move here

↑ PinkFridge ↓

Thu, Aug 21 2014, 1:16 pm

Tova wrote:

The Lakewood school are owned, ie, not non-profit organizations? There is no board of directors?

That would be interesting, to have someone cogently explain this. We OOTers are used to community schools with a board, with Federation funding, etc.
I just hope that this doesn't devolve into lashon hara. Something I meant to say in an earlier post: I don't know if I should be here as it's not nogeiah. Though it might be for my grandchildren at some point....

↑ sky ↓

Thu, Aug 21 2014, 3:31 pm

Barbara wrote:

I could be confusing it with a different school, but isn't the school outside of Lakewood largely Sephardic? Why would anyone think that would be a better fit?

Just to add -- if its the school I'm thinking of, the few encounters I've had with the parent body were all extremely pleasant.

There are other communities as well, besides for the sephardic community in Deal\Longbranch.
Although I do know of old time Lakewooders that do send to schools in the Deal area (incidently you do have students from Deal who come into Lakewood)

↑ sky ↓

Thu, Aug 21 2014, 3:35 pm

Barbara wrote:

My son's high school has at least twice as many applicants as it has slots. They turn down plenty of kids, but in the end, everyone winds up in a school.

But I hear the problem. Its been discussed here before. And it needs a solution. I hope that one is found soon.

Who takes responsibility to see that this happens? Is it just that people want to send there but if they get in somewhere else they will be okay? Obviously there are enough spaces for everyone. Here there are not enough spaces.
I know this isn't a general rule but the MO orthodox's school's students rates don't increase the same they do here. Here so many families are having one child after another. Even if they don't have too many kids they are typically close in age and then another family moves to town repeating. So you have many children born every year and the number of students increase exponentially. In other communities I don't think the numbers increase so much because people don't have as many kids close together, and there isn't as large of an influx of newlywed couples moving in every year to repeat the process.

↑ amother ↓

Thu, Aug 21 2014, 3:38 pm

amother wrote:

Yep you are 100% right.

If DH has to be sitting and learning in Kollel in order to be considered Yeshivish then it's all a sad game.

However if on the other hand you can be Yeshivish without currently having a DH in Kollel then it is not exactly true.

So let's say someone feel's having a TV is wrong and is actually not permitted according to the Torah (As Rav Shach, Rav Yackov Kamenetsky, and The Stiepler wrote in aletter they issued).
Let's say they feel that iti si 100% wrong to have unfiltered Internet access. Furthermore they feel that children should not have Internet access at all.
Let's say they put less of an emphasis on secular knowledge. They don't feel that secular knowledge has intrinsic value rather it's amean's to earn a living.
They feel that tznius is not just for women and it's not just halachos it's for men also and extends to the way they dress. They feel that it's wrong for men to walk around in short's or t shirt's or what
not because men should dress in a refined manner that set's them apart.
Oh, and they should be strict about how they dress for davening, if at all possible they should wear a hat and jacket.
Those are just some of their value's.

And they want to raise thier children with those values.

Now of course they acknowldge that there are many places where not only do the school's not reflect that value system, the entire community is built with a different set of value's completly.
And they realize you can't exactly move in and force other's to change to accomodate you. That is simply wrong.
So they go and open up a school of thier own where those value's are taught. And they create a community of their own where those value's are taught.
And even though many of them are very poor they scrape together money to build up[ institutions Shul's Mikvaos, Yeshivos, Beis Yackov's.
And those amongst them who go into business and hit it off begin to play arole in building up the community.
You see as the community grow's and more and more of them enter the business field some flame out.
However other's become multi-millionaires.
And they re-invest in the community they came from and want to continue to build.
They pay for Rabbonim to publish seforim, they set about building an amazing array of Chessed org, that is virtually unparrelled in the Litvishe world.
Of course it cost's these pople Million's more then in other communities because when half your city is sitting and learning and another quarter is in kodesh profession's which geneally do not pay well the quarter left who are in the business world have to pay an outsize share of the bill's.
But they do it and the majority of them do it happily. In fact many will tell you that they feel that Hashem gave them Hatzlocha in business that was beyond their ildest dream's precisley because a good portion of their money was going to support the vast infratructure Of Torah and Chessed they had helped create.

Then of course come along families who feel that you know what?
Secular knowledge is really valuable as more then a mean's of earning a living.
And what's wrong with having a TV?
And why should my children not be allowed access to the internet?
And why does a man have to wear a hat and jacket for daveing? Where does it say that in Shulchan Aruch.
And do not woory even though the community was built around a Yeshivah, our children will not know it exists.
And even though we half the men in the community are in kollel and the majority of the other's spent year's in Kollel before going out to work, we will make sure our children know that we do not hold by Kollel, we feel it's wrong.

And then these families, who happen to be made up of woderful folks, who simply have a different upbring and different outlook in life.

However they start realizing that. Hey, the housing is cheaper in the community those other people built for themselves then our's. And the cost of living is cheaper. Plus hey they have school's and store's and shul's and a whole communal infrastructre!

Let's move there!
Let's buy a house there and we'll send our children to the school's they built.
And we'll explain to them how Ahavas Yisroel work's.

It's like this.
We get to dress the way we want.
We get to keep our TV<and unfiltered internet access.
Oh and our vacations in Disneyworld.
We also get to bash our new community's Rabbonim and Hashkofa's we get to complain to everyone and everybody about how close minded they are and how "they just don't get it".
In a community that was built up around a Yeshivah, we'll ensure our children do not even know that a Yeshivah exists.
Oh and we'll ensure they know we don't hold of Kollel at all, even though the town was built around the concept of Kollel.

But we'll teach the town that if you don't take our kid's into your schools then it's a power trip and Sinas Chinam and if you say anything bad about us it's LH.

↑ PinkFridge ↓

Thu, Aug 21 2014, 3:43 pm

amother wrote:

Then of course come along families who feel that you know what?
Secular knowledge is really valuable as more then a mean's of earning a living.
And what's wrong with having a TV?
And why should my children not be allowed access to the internet?
And why does a man have to wear a hat and jacket for daveing? Where does it say that in Shulchan Aruch.
And do not woory even though the community was built around a Yeshivah, our children will not know it exists.
And even though we half the men in the community are in kollel and the majority of the other's spent year's in Kollel before going out to work, we will make sure our children know that we do not hold by Kollel, we feel it's wrong.

I appreciate what you're saying, and the men in my family due daven with hat and jacket by the way, but I still have a hard time seeing that one in the rest of the list.

amothertoo ↓

Thu, Aug 21 2014, 5:11 pm

If only these type of people were the only ones not getting into school. The difference in "hashgafos" is not always so clear cut. I don't believe in having a TV, unfiltered internet, my husband davens with a hat and jacket, I cover my knees, learning torah is a priority by my husband, our home is filled with a love of torah and mitzvos. BUT AT THE SAME TIME I will wear a denim skirt, my sheital is a few inches past my shoulder, my husband works and has no problem wearing blue shirts. and so we consider ourselves yarei shamayaim, fulfilling hashems will and his torah, but we are notttt yeshivish. Sending my child to a "yeshivish school" will not be hypocritical, because after all is said and done our goals for being mechanaich our children is the same, to raise yarei shamayim with a love for torah and mitzvos. Yeshivishness is a CULTURE, it is not mandated by the Torah and we feel no need to conform ourselves. and it is US who couldn't get our child into school and many like us.

PS anyone read this past weeks letter to AMI magazine. It was written so well and after going through my school saga, it rang beyond true for what goes on in Lakewood.

↑ amother ↓

Thu, Aug 21 2014, 5:17 pm

My primary age son still does not have a yeshiva when all yeshivos are starting this Wednesday in six days. My husband is learning in BMG and we are very yeshivjsh and still no school. Go figure!

penguin

Thu, Aug 21 2014, 5:21 pm

Just to explain re: Betzalel etc. I was told that those who 'did not fit in' to the 'Yeshivish' schools did not want to send to Betzalel. They wanted their kids to be in 'Yeshivish' schools.

I am not sure why, due to many reasons mentioned (conflicting values at home/school etc) but it seems to be true. And that's why there is not enough support for more 'left-wing' schools.

↑ amother ↓

Thu, Aug 21 2014, 5:23 pm

amothertoo wrote:

The difference in "hashgafos" is not always so clear cut. I don't believe in having a TV, unfiltered internet, my husband davens with a hat and jacket, I cover my knees, learning torah is a priority by my husband, our home is filled with a love of torah and mitzvos. BUT AT THE SAME TIME I will wear a denim skirt, my sheital is a few inches past my shoulder, my husband works and has no problem wearing blue shirts. and so we consider ourselves yarei shamayaim, fulfilling hashems will and his torah, but we are notttt yeshivish. Sending my child to a "yeshivish school" will not be hypocritical, because after all is said and done our goals for being mechanaich our children is the same, to raise yarei shamayim with a love for torah and mitzvos. Yeshivishness is a CULTURE, it is not mandated by the Torah and we feel no need to conform ourselves.

Except for the fac that you clearly state that the school is "Yeshivish" which you define as a "culture" that you are unwilling to conform to while a school that define's itself as part of the yeshivish "culture" would presumbly be teaching the children in their care along the line's of "yeshivish culture".

So now you feel that the school that by your admission is part of the "yeshivish culture" and presumbly is populated by a parent body that is overwhelmingly part of the "yeshivish culture" and trying to raise children in home's that conform to the yeshivish "culture" is somehow wrong for indicating that if you do not wish for such a "culture" in your home you are probably better off not having your children attend their school?

↑ PinkFridge

Thu, Aug 21 2014, 5:24 pm

penguin wrote:

Without knowing too many details, it could be that they wanted a more rigorous kodesh curriculum. Read amothertoo above - leaving aside the culture, why shouldn't she want the same level of learning and commitment?

↑ amother ↓

Thu, Aug 21 2014, 5:28 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

Actually after Bezalel closed down and there was a situation where there were children that every school refused to accept no matter how much pressure was placed on them, there was a group of Askanim who attempted to "re-open" the school specifically to serve this clientele and it closed for good a couple of year's later due to the fact that no one would send thier child their.

↑ amothertoo ↓

Thu, Aug 21 2014, 5:34 pm

The schools don't teach the culture. They teach Torah at its fullest. I believe in Torah to its fullest. There might be some small nuances, such as my daughters school says no secular videos, and I have let my kids watch shows such as Curious George, Barney. I already told my daughter that since it is a school rule, we will stick to the Jewish stuff. DO u think my daughter will be scarred from this contradiction. I don't. Uniforms have to be 4 inches below her knee. I explained that really Hashem wants to make sure our knees are covered at all times and that's why school as this rule. Are all my skirts 4 inches below my knees, no, but there is nothing wrong with following a school rule. The school stresses Learning in kollel. great! bc learning is not a "yeshivish culture" thing. My husband learned for 4 years and I will be thrilled if my daughter is zoche to the same.
When I mean culture, I mean the stupidity that in Lakewood automatically means you are a top yarei shamayim. How big are your peyos, how white are your shirts,etc.
My husband was in school and spent a lot of his free time leaning in our local shul. He can tell you who the real yarei shamayim and learners are.

↑ amother ↓

Thu, Aug 21 2014, 5:43 pm

amothertoo wrote:

The schools don't teach the culture. They teach Torah at its fullest.

Seem's to me the school's disagree with you as they seem to feel they are teaching and giving over a value systema as well.

↑ amother ↓

Thu, Aug 21 2014, 5:50 pm

[quote="amothertoo There might be some small nuances, such as my daughters school says no secular videos, and I have let my kids watch shows such as Curious George, Barney. I already told my daughter that since it is a school rule, we will stick to the Jewish stuff. DO u think my daughter will be scarred from this contradiction. I don't. Uniforms have to be 4 inches below her knee. I explained that really Hashem wants to make sure our knees are covered at all times and that's why school as this rule. Are all my skirts 4 inches below my knees, no, but there is nothing wrong with following a school rule. The school stresses Learning in kollel. great! bc learning is not a "yeshivish culture" thing. My husband learned for 4 years and I will be thrilled if my daughter is zoche to the same.
.[/quote]

Regarding the rest of your post.
The more yeshivish school's actually have a rule tha tis basically no video's, my daughter's and no internet access at all.

But if you basically feel as what I think from your post's well there are several school's that fit your bill.
Ateres tzipora is one also Bnos Rivka and there's Bnos Brocha. Iknwo a similar type of family that send's to Bnos Penina as well and are very happy, however they say there are a lot of yeshivish families in the schoola nd the school generally is trying to be more yeshivish.

But I am unaware of how much space there is in any of them.

↑ amothertoo

Thu, Aug 21 2014, 6:00 pm

Ha. my daughter actually has a school, not one that you mentioned> We actually felt that schools like Bnos Rivka and AT are not for us. Alot of the mothers are not on the level of tznius that I want, alot of the fathers are not machshuv torah on the level my husband wants, and there are influences in their homes that I do not bring to mine. ( I know this for a fact bc we did apply there and look extensively into it)
Your just as guilty of judging me bc of unimportant details such as letting my kids watch curious George.
Why exactly didn't you mention any other schools for me such as the holy Bais Tova or Bnos Orchos Chaim.
O right, if your sheital is a drop longer than your shoulder there, its ok, bc after all Grandpa gave 50,000.

↑ MaBelleVie

Thu, Aug 21 2014, 6:04 pm

amothertoo wrote:

Don't you realize how ironic this is? You're just as judgmental as the school system you're criticizing for the same crime.