Lakewood - anyone still school-less?

↑ amother ↓

Thu, Aug 21 2014, 1:01 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

What's sad is - and I'm not talking about Lakewood but OTD kids in general - sometimes the parents do get it, but too late. Or they make one misstep and the kid is too sad and damaged to give them another chance. It's really painful and maybe next time we say birkas haTorah, we really should have in mind that kol tzetzai Amcha beis Yisrael experience the sweetness of Torah and its faithful adherents.

You are right, and one giant mis-step is send a child to a school that is teaching values at odds with the home's value's.

It to often does not work and the tragic consequences are children who grow up really confused which is never a good thing.

I think that instead of parent's talking about how they will "outsmart" the school's internet policies or change to pick up thier kid's or lie about where they take vacations. They should look deep inside themselves and ask why they are sending thier are trying to send their children to a school which is telling them straight out.

"These are our value's, this is the hashkofah that will be taught to your daughter (or son for that matter) ,these are the people that will be held up as role model's. If you disagree with us please realize that this is not the place for your daughter".

When someone get's married and has children they are accepting a responsibilty on themselves. By having achild they are accepting a huge chesed from Hashem and a achrayus at the same time. Part of that achrayus mean's leaving your life awith the knowledge that the decision's you make impact your family as well.

Where you send your child to school impact's them and that's more important then your social standing.
What type of community you live in impacts them and who thier friend's will be, not just you.

↑ amother ↓

Thu, Aug 21 2014, 1:06 pm

amother wrote:

I"m going to get lots of hate for this.

but you have literally thousands of people who move to Lakewood and expect the infrastructure to magically fit them.
There are lots of complaints:
There aren't enough mikvas
There aren't enough schools
The schools aren't my type
etc.
Why don't people get up and do something.
Its hard - but why expect others to do it.
(Maybe I"m talking to myself as well).

No one is thanking those who built the original infrastructure. Who created a community that is available to move to. Someone built the many mikvas, and started the schools. And it fit the community at the time. And then you have a solid community and people move her en-mass and then complain it doesn't fit them.

I really don't care about the types - my DH works, he wears colored shirts. I'm very happy here. The infrastructure needs a major overhall. Problem is that people who do step up to the plate and create new infrastructure get a lot of hate, which I think discourages others.

and I agree with Chayalle we need more schools to the left. Many people either don't want to open them or attend them.

I agree with you compleley (well not the last part).

And I will say that my DH has been involved in numerous thing's (and actually is currently involved in something).

The first time he tried to do anything A Rov told him "just be aware if you want to do something for klal yisroel you better do it l'shem shomayim and have thick skin at the same time, if not it will break you. Then his Rov told him, "You have a choice be from the people who complain or the people who do, ther's no one who's both."

↑ saw50st8

Thu, Aug 21 2014, 1:14 pm

amother wrote:

Maybe part of the problem with opening not as yeshivish schools is you need money.
the yeshiva\"askanim" have a method of helping new schools start up - it is expensive.

Are they supposed to give the money to the schools that don't meet their hashkafa? I have a hard time believing they are blocking anything - I'd like to hear the name of a rav who is because I would think they would support it. Perhaps they just aren't willing to fund it. Should they?

Here is why I think they should:

1) If they want to keep the yeshivish schools very yeshivish, they need to deal with the issue of less yeshivish people moving in. Either they support less yeshivish schools opening or the less yeshivish people will attend the more yeshivish schools.

2) Less yeshivish schools are more likely to have working parents. That means that after initial start up costs, they are more likely to be self supporting. Self supporting means more funds available for more yeshivish schools.

3) If the askanim support the startup to the less yeshivish schools, the schools will feel a connection to more Yeshivish lakewood and may be willing to follow more of the mainstream BMG proclamations because they feel connected. If less yeshivish people open the school without the backing of mainstream Lakewood, there will be no incentive to try to conform at all to what the rabbonim want.

↑ Barbara ↓

Thu, Aug 21 2014, 1:26 pm

amother wrote:

First I just want to clarify I am not the amother who attacked you.

Secondly in response to the eiruv issue I happen to be conflicted about it.

In some case's I truly do see both sides for ex. the current issue in Monroe.

I sypmathize with the Chassidim who really need more place for their families to live. On the other hand I understand people saying "this is not an issue of anti-semitisim we simply moved to arural community for a rural lifestyle and living space we do not want that to change.".

My DH was at a shiur from a big RW Rav on Hilchos Shabbos and the the issue of the shabbos siren's came up. The Rov said "I don't understand the people doing this. Don't they understand that we Jews are in Golus, we b"h live in a medinah shel chesed we were never welcomed and treated so well. However how would you like it if all of a sudden once a week a large siren was blasted off in the middle of the neighborhood for several seconds to alert other's that their day of rest was coming. What about the little children who don't understand it and get frightened, the old people who get frightened ect..Why can't we understand our neighbor's and not impose our lifestyle on them?".

But let me be clear that the difference between the eiruv, siren's and even housing vs. school's is pretty clear.

No one is asking other's to change their lifestyle, home's or propety to put up the string that make's up the eiruv.

They are simply being asked to be allowed to live and be accomodated.

However when someone with a very different Hashkofa sends their child to a school that was built by other's is funded by other's, is run by other's, and the majority of the student body has a hashkofah different then thiers thier are ina sense demanding everyone else change to fit them.

They are not just asking to be allowed in they are asking other's to change their live's to fit their's.

First, I should make clear that my earlier comments were intended to demonstrate that the issue was not tziniut, it was hashkafa. A blue shirt is no less tziniut than a white one; a black suede kippa no less halachically acceptable than a black velvet one. And it seems to me that's what the schools are trying to enforce. The poster, however, was arguing that it was tziniut.

Monroe, IMNSHO, is a more complicated issue than you state. Yes, its one community that needs room to expand, and another community that wants to preserve its rural nature. But its more than that. The people in Kiryat Joel don't want their children exposed to certain things, and are very likely to try to ensure that any expanded area includes such restrictions. So there is likely to be a culture clash -- non-Jews who will, for example, want to dress in a certain way, have boys and girls playing together in the playground, and maybe even grill some babyback ribs and play some music at the park on Saturday afternoon. And the Chassidim of Kiryat Joel who will want things very different. And no matter how open minded and welcoming the non-Jews would profess to be, it wouldn never work.

And, well, its the same with the eruv. It changes the nature of the community. Secular Jews, no less than RW Orthodox Jews, don't want that.

Back to the schools. If people are demanding that schools accept their way of doing things, or even say that they're legitimate, you have a point. Today, my legs are bare, and I'm wearing peep toe nude pumps. If, in some fantasy world, I were to send a child to a school in Lakewood, I would never in a million years wear that to school. Its not what the school expects, and I think that has to be respected.

BTW, and as a strange aside, my aunt lived in Lakewood in the 1950s, and a close friend's grandfather played a role in the founding of BMG (I'd say my friend is secular, but that would imply that she had some tangential relationship to Judaism).

↑ Chayalle ↓

Thu, Aug 21 2014, 1:28 pm

If schools would only accept students who meet their Hashkafa completely, Chayalle whose DH is still learning would not exist. My high school and seminary would not have accepted me.

So - I'm a bit of a believer in stretching the limit, especially where the prospective student/parent is willing to stretch.

That being said - a year or two ago, a relative of mine who sends to one of the more left wing schools and is more right-wing there, called me and told me her niece was not accepted, due to them being more to the left of what the school wants...... Her in-laws were asking her to intervene with the school and help get the child in, as she was a parent in good standing and the child's aunt.

This relative said, how can I speak to them if they don't meet the school's requirements regarding tznius, etc...why would they even listen to me.

me: So where should this child go to school? Should she go to PS? Or perhaps Catholic school? She's Jewish, where should she go? You are her aunt, you need to help her.

relative: Well, they say she can go to (school outside of Lakewood).

Me: Would you want to transport your five year old 1/2 hour out of Lakewood each day? What if you have an emergency, would you want your child to be far from you? Would you consider that an option, having to pick her up from so far out for a dentist appt, etc...

relative: no

me: so she needs to get into a Jewish school in Lakewood

relative: I see

So relative went down to (school) and talked to them, and they yelled and spelled out exactly why the child was not accepted. But a few days later, the child was in.

I don't know what else went on, and I would guess the parents agreed to some concessions, dress code, etc...because that's the usual fair.

Honestly, I was surprised that they accepted her in the end, but glad too. The child is Jewish. There needs to be an option for every Jewish child in town.

Just my two cents.

↑ amother ↓

Thu, Aug 21 2014, 1:36 pm

To be truthful, this thread has shown the true colors of so many people. What started as a simple question if anyone is still school-less has turned into a full fledged bash Lakewood thread (which unfortunately seems to be the "in" thing to do around here. As a wife of someone involved in an organization (not a school) in Lakewood and having come from out of town but living in Lakewood for close to 12 years, I can say that I LOVE it here. There is so much, tzedaka, chesed and Torah and overall good in this town. Yes, there are challenges and issues like there are in every town, and the issue of schools is one of them. The overall negativity towards Lakewood is disgusting and outright Loshon Hora against a whole city. There is no simple solution for the school issues as there is a shortage of schools but if someone expects to stay the way they are and expect the schools to take their kids when they do not conform to the schools standards, they are crazy. I personally know many people who run schools and the agmas nefesh they get from it is not normal. They are nice, caring people who get their names dragged through the mud all the time. My husband has contemplated opening a school before but he says, "why should I open a school to get my name ruined for no reason". Almost all people who run schools are NOT mean insensitive people rather people that are in a very tough situation. Let us all look at the good and not focus on the negative so much! Maybe that will help bring Moshiach!

chaiz ↓

Thu, Aug 21 2014, 1:38 pm

Chayalle wrote:

That being said - a year or two ago, a relative of mine who sends to one of the more left wing schools and is more right-wing there, called me and told me her niece was not accepted, due to them being more to the left of what the school wants...... Her in-laws were asking her to intervene with the school and help get the child in, as she was a parent in good standing and the child's aunt.

This relative said, how can I speak to them if they don't meet the school's requirements regarding tznius, etc...why would they even listen to me.

me: So where should this child go to school? Should she go to PS? Or perhaps Catholic school? She's Jewish, where should she go? You are her aunt, you need to help her.

relative: Well, they say she can go to (school outside of Lakewood).

Me: Would you want to transport your five year old 1/2 hour out of Lakewood each day? What if you have an emergency, would you want your child to be far from you? Would you consider that an option, having to pick her up from so far out for a dentist appt, etc...

relative: no

me: so she needs to get into a Jewish school in Lakewood

relative: I see

So relative went down to (school) and talked to them, and they yelled and spelled out exactly why the child was not accepted. But a few days later, the child was in.

I don't know what else went on, and I would guess the parents agreed to some concessions, dress code, etc...because that's the usual fair.

Honestly, I was surprised that they accepted her in the end, but glad too. The child is Jewish. There needs to be an option for every Jewish child in town.

Just my two cents.

So my question is what makes the 5 1/2 year old student so left wing that she should be denied a Jewish education? What makes the students that are different so bad? Is there so much diversity? Having gone to a huge school with quite a diverse student/parent body, I can say the issue is not diversity. The one issue I see is if there are students/parents completely disregarding the school on everything and fighting with them on everything. But if parents/students are generally respectful, then I am not so sure it is so damaging to be with different people.

↑ Chayalle ↓

Thu, Aug 21 2014, 1:41 pm

chaiz wrote:

As I've already posted, it's not the 5 year old, it's the parents. And 5 year olds become teenagers in a few short years.

Yes, there's alot of diversity. And yes, there's a lack of respect in some situations between parents and schools...which of course makes it more difficult for everyone, including those who are not (disrespectful).

↑ MaBelleVie ↓

Thu, Aug 21 2014, 1:45 pm

Outside of chassidish schools that cater to a specific chassidus, I think you would be hard pressed to find some of the rigidity that exists in the Lakewood school setup. Each school has such a narrow window of what they want the families to look like. Each family has such a narrow window of what "type" of school their family should be a part of. I seriously wonder if people think they're doing themselves a favor by making each box so miniscule.

And the fact that people throw a fit about sending to a school that's a half hr away? I'm sorry but that's pathetic. People do that all the time, in Brooklyn and oot and they don't think it's nearly that tragic. Again, I can't wrap my head around some of the attitudes that exist on both sides.

↑ Chayalle ↓

Thu, Aug 21 2014, 1:48 pm

chaiz wrote:

What is the issue with the parents already? Obviously if they are not interested in following rules, I can I understand. But if they are willing to comply with certain basic rules, why not accept a Jewish child? Just because parents do not fit a mold makes them less good?

Yes...that is the case. For example, in the story I posted, the school said the mother should have thought about getting her child into school beforehand....she should have dressed according to the basic standards of tznius that the schools expect and have spelled out in their handbooks, when she applied to those schools or before.

But the question still remains....being that she didn't, should her child not have a Jewish school to go to?

And in the end, the child was accepted, the details of what that entailed were worked out.

↑ Barbara

Thu, Aug 21 2014, 2:15 pm

Chayalle wrote:

SNIP
relative: Well, they say she can go to (school outside of Lakewood).

Me: Would you want to transport your five year old 1/2 hour out of Lakewood each day? What if you have an emergency, would you want your child to be far from you? Would you consider that an option, having to pick her up from so far out for a dentist appt, etc...

relative: no

me: so she needs to get into a Jewish school in Lakewood

relative: I see

SNIP

I could be confusing it with a different school, but isn't the school outside of Lakewood largely Sephardic? Why would anyone think that would be a better fit?

Just to add -- if its the school I'm thinking of, the few encounters I've had with the parent body were all extremely pleasant.

↑ amother ↓

Thu, Aug 21 2014, 2:16 pm

amother wrote:

As for this gem.

Actually if your 10 families set up a school that is designed to promote a family lifestyle that is along the line's of Kabbolah, then I would expect the parent's to understand that is what is being taught in the schools.
That is the accepted custom's ot the place ect..

If you do not wish to adhere to that then you are better off not sending your child to that school, your child is better off not being in that schools. And the school is doing you a be chesed by not allowing you to put your child in a terrible situation.

On the other hand if you do insist on sending yiur child their.

Well then there is a good chance that your child will grow into a very confused teen.

OIne who for 12-13 years' was told one thing for half a day and another for another half.

A teen that has half her/his role model's attempt to portray one thing as proper behaviour and the other half something entirely different.

And there is a liklihood that this confused teen will end up rejecting everything from both sides.

Actually, the "confused teen" might just think for him or herself. Be frum because THEY want to, not because it was forced upon them. I went to a school where it was the best fit for me out of all local options but at the same time I was not the "ideal graduate". I did go to graduate school (not just college) as well as other more identifying details that they didn't think was ideal. My parents were pro-college, school not. I was never in trouble while at school. Never broke rules, got critiqued for my tzniyus, or was reprimanded for behavior or anything else one might theoretically get in trouble at a BY school. I got impressive grades yadda yadda yadda. But I did decide for myself what was best for me as I got old enough to make those decisions. I figured out a path that I feel is right for me. I thought it out, I figured out who I am, and am still frum.
What socio-demographic box am I in? No clue, but I think old clothes fit in boxes. People? Not so.