l'chatchila vs. b'dieved

613 ↓

Wed, Dec 22 2004, 11:29 am

oh, ppl. have such a misconception about l'chatchila and b'dieved. I just addressed this in another thread. the shoresh of l'chatchila means beginning. when faced with a situation there is ONE correct way to do it- the l'chatchila way. if you already did not do it correctly, you may be okay, for a b'dieved reason. But you should not do something the b'dieved way to begin with. b'dieved just means that you did it the wrong way, but you're yotzei anyway (AFTER the fact).

Example:
misconception: you can say shehakol on any food that you don't know the bracha of
truth: if you (accidentaly) SAID shehakol on a food (whether you knew the bracha or not) you are yotzei

↑ 613 ↓

Wed, Dec 22 2004, 11:31 am

in terms of "halachikly preferred"-
I have heard that term used before, and what I think it means is that by doing something that is halachikly preferred you are being yotzei most or all shitos (opinions) on the subject. as opposed to following a minority opinion. this is called being machmir or makil.

↑ gryp ↓

Wed, Dec 22 2004, 12:02 pm

0613- I know thats one lichatchila and bidieved mean- but in some cases, they also mean "halachically preferable." for example (off the top of my head)- when you light the menorah, lichatchilah you should use oil, bidieved you can use candles. lichatchila, you should use cotton wicks, bidieved, you dont have to. lichatchila the candles should be beeswax, bidieved, youre still yotze the mitzvah. unless im very wrong about all this.

about "halachically preferable," it is definitely used. I see it many times in Family Purity. I guess that means (as 0613 said) that most opinions hold that way.

Motek

Wed, Dec 22 2004, 12:09 pm

Quote:

Example:
misconception: you can say shehakol on any food that you don't know the bracha of
truth: if you (accidentaly) SAID shehakol on a food (whether you knew the bracha or not) you are yotzei

nope
truth: if you are in a situation where you don't know the proper bracha and can't find out, you can, b'dieved, say sh'hakol!

it's not just for accidents!

↑ 613 ↓

Wed, Dec 22 2004, 12:22 pm

RG- I think it is halachikly preferable to use oil/cottonwicks/beeswax. see the difference?

Motek- you are right. but only because you added the words "and can't find out." there is almost always s/o you can call or a sefer you can reference to find out a bracha. just b/c right now, I don't have a sefer and let's say it's 2 in the morning so I can't call anyone, I'm not sure if you have a heter to say shehakol. my dh is an "expert" in hilchos brachos, I'll check w/ him and get back to you. I may be mistaken, but I've heard him yell at ppl. when they say, "I don't know what bracha this is, so I'll just make a shehakol."

↑ gryp ↓

Wed, Dec 22 2004, 12:25 pm

Quote:

RG- I think it is halachikly preferable to use oil/cottonwicks/beeswax. see the difference?

whats the difference? if oil/cottonwicks/beeswax is lichatchila, then the others are bidieved and also good. am I missing something?

↑ 613 ↓

Wed, Dec 22 2004, 12:37 pm

RG wrote:

Quote:

when you light the menorah, lichatchilah you should use oil, bidieved you can use candles. lichatchila, you should use cotton wicks, bidieved, you dont have to. lichatchila the candles should be beeswax, bidieved, youre still yotze the mitzvah. unless im very wrong about all this.

if I were to explain what you wrote according to my definition of lichatchilah/b'dieved it would be:
when you light menorah, you should use oil, if you used candles you are yotzei (but that is not the preferable way), you should use cotton wicks, if you didn't you are yotzei (but that is not the preferable way).
when I see that you wrtoe "bidieved, you dont have to" it seems to me that you're saying if you DON'T then you're yotzei. THAT'S INCORRECT! really it is, if you DIDN'T then you're yotzei. There's a difference between don't (which is before the action=l'chatchila) and didn't (which is after the action=b'dieved).
I'm sorry it's very hard to explain w/ all the grammar getting in the way Sad

↑ 613 ↓

Wed, Dec 22 2004, 12:40 pm

SORRY that I got this thread completely off-track of IUD's to b'dieved/lchatchila. I'll ask Yael to move it.
Now, everyone go back to discussing IUD's (maybe just leave the words bdieved, lchatchilah, and halachikly preferable out of it!) Very Happy

↑ 613

Wed, Dec 22 2004, 2:03 pm

motek-
My DH is going to look it up again. But he feels pretty strongly that the only way you can make a shehakol on a food is if NO ONE knows the correct bracha- ie. if there's a machlokes rishonim. but, if you're up at 2 am w/ no one to call and no sefer to look at, you can not just make a shehakol on that food. so what do you do? well, let's say you're not sure if it's haetz or haadamah, then find a haetz food, make the bracha and eat some, having the original food in mind, then find a haadamah food, make the brocha, eat some, having the original food in mind. then you can eat your original food.
you are only yotzei with a shehakol BDIEVED, after you already made the shehakol and took a bite, NOT beforehand/L'CHATCHILA (unless it's a food that NO ONE knows the bracha of).

de_goldy

Wed, Dec 22 2004, 9:21 pm

Quote:

thats what we do with rice, but a lot of people just say shehakol

The alter Rebbe says in 'Seder Birchas Hanehenin' that a baal nefesh should wash before eating rice.

↑ gryp

Wed, Dec 22 2004, 9:34 pm

amazing. every day something new about rice. first I hear people say shehakol. then I learn in school, you should eat a mezonos and have in mind the rice. then I get married, and I learn you should eat something of every bracha and have in mind the rice. now I learn youre supposed to wash...
I wonder how they came to the conclusion of what bracha to say on rice cereals- rice crispies,...

stem

Wed, Apr 06 2005, 5:21 pm

RG wrote:

Actually, all those things about the menorah are MEHUDAR - not Lechatchila. If you use candles you are Yotzei lechatchila, it's not a bedi'eved.

Quote:

there is ONE correct way to do it- the l'chatchila way. if you already did not do it correctly, you may be okay, for a b'dieved reason. But you should not do something the b'dieved way to begin with. b'dieved just means that you did it the wrong way, but you're yotzei anyway (AFTER the fact).

This is correct.

Sunshine

Wed, Apr 06 2005, 5:25 pm

As a kid our teachers always said shahakol on liquorice with us. When I was older I learned that the real bracha is mizonos. Corn/ potato chips are hadama(pringles are shahakol).