Cut Me Loose - By Leah Vincent. Anyone read it? Thoughts?

↑ imasinger ↓

Tue, Mar 04 2014, 9:58 pm

I just read it a few days ago.

Because the author was a confused and somewhat neglected, definitely misunderstood teen at the time she first started off the derech, I believe that in her own mind, she confused a lot of different issues. Her father's prejudices get blended into the things she learned in school, and the impressions she gets from the behavior of her mother.

I think an intelligent reader should work to sort the conflated thinking. For example, "my father thought badly of people of color. My father didn't approve of me. My tradition teaches that if you do not dress a certain way and observe shomer negia, then you are bad." Therefore, once she spirals from longing after a boy to talking to a boy to her aunt and uncle's disapproval, and then on down, she sees herself (as per her family's reflection) as a complete loser. Was that the whole picture? We don't know. But she chooses to seek out men of color with whom to have a relationship, and later, a married man.

I doubt we can blame the concept of tznius, the ideals and flaws of the yeshivish world, or the laws of SN, for her rebellion. While those ideas were a piece of the puzzle, they were not the main pieces.

Had she been raised by parents who could tolerate her doubts and questions, let her know she was loved at all times, and work harder to find the right seminary for her, I think her story would have been very different.

Ruchelrivka

Tue, Mar 04 2014, 10:29 pm

Ladies, quite to the contrary, tznious allows women more freedom, not more subservience. We define ourselves positively, in wholesome, good ways by being tznious. When you see women who are wearing revealing clothes, don't you stop to think how pressured by men and society these poor women are? They are forced by their own fears and their own need to conform to expose so much of themselves -- much more than those of us who are tznious dressers.

Regarding Leah Vincent...she is obviously a very troubled young woman. I have known her parents for many years. I have no doubts that they did, in fact, seek psychiatric treatment for her. When you get past the trendy religion trashing, the disgustingly scintillating parts of the book, and the trashing of her family -- it is very obvious that Leah Vincent is a very troubled young woman. Anyone who would become a harlot or allow herself to become involved in a series of promiscuous affairs, obviously has very serious emotional stability and self esteem issues. Cutting is a behavior that belies a serious mental/ emotional problem.
Leah Vincent's scholastic and professional success do not in any way minimize how very troubled she is. Leah has a warped and distorted perception of the world,(especially the religious world), her family, and her relationship with all of them.
By talking about her as though she was normal and what she says has validity and purpose, you are helping to perpetuate the destruction that she wants to wreak on these institutions. Her instability and inability to conform are the problem. She had shifted the blame onto her family and her religion for her own twisted purpose. Then she doesn't have to take any of the blame herself.
If she were your child, how would you feel?

↑ BlueRose52 ↓

Tue, Mar 04 2014, 11:20 pm

Ruchelrivka wrote:

When you see women who are wearing revealing clothes, don't you stop to think how pressured by men and society these poor women are?

Not at all. Admittedly, this does happen in certain situations (like at the beach), but the average person who dresses on most days, wears whatever they're comfortable with, not because of any pressure from men or society. When I walk around the grocery store or the mall or look around at work, I hardly ever see people wearing overly revealing clothes.

Ruchelrivka wrote:

They are forced by their own fears and their own need to conform to expose so much of themselves -- much more than those of us who are tznious dressers.

IMHO, this is another one of those meshugasen they teach in Beis Yakovs and seminaries to naive teenagers to make frum life appear superior. Sure, there are insecure people who dress provocatively because they think it will win them some kind of approval, probably mostly when they're in their teens, but the overwhelmingly vast majority of everyday non-religious people (as opposed to celebrities or other such special cases) dress however they please, whether it be more provocatively or more traditional. It's what they want, no one's making them do it.

It's kind of ironic that you use the phrases "pressured by men and society", "the need to conform", and "forced by their own fears" about the secular world when the reality is that all these ideas can be used to describe certain frum communities just as much (maybe even more). The pressure to dress a certain way and conform in some communities far exceeds anything in the secular world! It's just pressure to dress according to the communal standards, as opposed to pressure to look s-xy. And fear? Think about how afraid people are of being caught doing something even slightly untznius, like chas v'shalom showing a bit of their knee when getting out of a car. Oy vey! Or even something not untznius, just irregular from the typical styles and colors? And pressure from men? Tell me, who's always making up more tznius rules about what women can and can't do? I'm pretty sure the rabbonim who are making these demands about stockings and sheitels and makeup and skirt lengths are all men. (Well, some women get in on it too, but the men are definitely involved in the process.)

↑ PinkFridge ↓

Wed, Mar 05 2014, 12:02 pm

BlueRose52 wrote:

Think about how afraid people are of being caught doing something even slightly untznius, like chas v'shalom showing a bit of their knee when getting out of a car. Oy vey! Or even something not untznius, just irregular from the typical styles and colors? And pressure from men? Tell me, who's always making up more tznius rules about what women can and can't do? I'm pretty sure the rabbonim who are making these demands about stockings and sheitels and makeup and skirt lengths are all men. (Well, some women get in on it too, but the men are definitely involved in the process.)

So am I neurotic or unhealthy for consciously taking a moment before getting out of the car to make sure my knees are covered? Or just being careful to fulfill the mitzvah of tznius as I've been taught?

chaiz ↓

Wed, Mar 05 2014, 1:20 pm

Ruchelrivka wrote:

Regarding Leah Vincent...she is obviously a very troubled young woman. I have known her parents for many years. I have no doubts that they did, in fact, seek psychiatric treatment for her.

Anyone honest will say she is obviously a troubled woman. But those who know both sides of the story also know that it is not so simple that is troubled and she is making it up and that her parents were there for her and doing their best. It could have been their best, but then I am not impressed. And maybe some of her troubles started as a kid and could have been helped before she reached her state today. I am not saying she is honest in her book at all and she is probably not honest with herself as well, but from people who know her and her issues, not everything is just because she is troubled.

↑ BlueRose52 ↓

Wed, Mar 05 2014, 1:47 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

Hey, do whatever you feel is right. My point wasn't that it's wrong or unhealthy.

My point was that I think it's unfair to make claims that tznius is "freeing", compared to the secular world which places all these pressures and burdens and fears on women, when the frum world's rules about tznius does exactly that, if not more so. They're just fears and pressures of a different sort.

bruriyah

Wed, Mar 05 2014, 2:16 pm

Ruchelrivka wrote:

Rochelrivka, I agree with Bluerose's response to you. You are completely flipping the paradigm. Your typical secular person doesn't feel pressered to dress in any particular way the way frum people are pressured.

As an aside, whe I read the book, it wasn't a surprise to me that Leah fell into a loop of promiscuous activity. With tznius, as its typically taught in Bais Yakov schools, there is no mention of gradation - what is actual halachah, what is minhag hamakom, what is das yehudis, what is drabanan, what is d'oraisa etc... Basically, exposing a knee, touching a boy (and in high schools you wouldn't even be taught that it's the issur of niddah that is the real problem), a tight shirt, are all in the same category. It wouldn't take much for a teenaged girl educated this way to think: "I kissed the boy, who cares... I may as well sleep with him..." It's a typical psychological response to guilt.

For example, when I was in high school, we had a few classes on tznius, and my teacher said that since the gedolim of today have signed that it is necessary to have skirts four inches below the knee to ensure that they are covered at all times, it is absolute halacha.

I was a very sincere teenager and I can't tell you what a heavy load she put on me by saying this. I desparately wanted to do the right thing, and according to this teacher, the four inches were in the same category of collarbone, knees etc... On the other hand, I really did not want to fix many of my skirts. It would cost a lot of money and there were some skirts that just don't look good at that length. I remember going home and trying on skirts and thinking, "But this skirt is flairy and it doesnt need four inches to cover my knees when I sit..."

I decided that before I fixed all my skirts, I would call my father's dayan, who is chassidish (my family is not) and a tremendous talmid chacham. I asked him if it is halachah that all of a woman's skirts need to be four inches below her knee. His respose was:

"No [surpised tone] it just needs to cover the knee and be tznuis].

I hung up the phone thinking: "This is a well-known dayan and he doesn't know about the all-inclusive decision that ALL the gedolim of today made? Was he not there?"

No, he wasn't there. There was no grand meeting where all the gedolim decided skirts must be four inches below. There were some people who wrote books on tznius where it said this and they got hakamos from some gedolim.

Whatever. But with that phone call, my trust in teachers regarding this issue went out the window, never to return.

My point is, I wouldn't be surprised if someone else'e response to the four inches would be: "Well I'm not keeping halacha by not having my skirts four inches below the knee, I may as well ______________ [fill in the blank].

And the fact that you think Leah has emotional problems, how is that relevant? All of the things she describes about why she left religion would make emotionally healthy people susceptible to leaving as well. If I would be in her shoes, I'd probably rebel, and I never sought psychiatric care. So who cares about that?

"She had shifted the blame onto her family and her religion for her own twisted purpose. Then she doesn't have to take any of the blame herself."

Reaally? When I read the book, I was able to relate, at least on some level, to every single thing she wrote [except for her family estranging her which I find very disturbing]. Please don't bury your head in the sand. You know that her experiences are based on popular frum hashkafos - albeit a more extreme form.

↑ PinkFridge ↓

Wed, Mar 05 2014, 8:49 pm

BlueRose52 wrote:

But I don't do it out of fear or any pressure to conform or any other pressure. Just because this is how I feel I can best do the mitzvah, IOW best live my life.
Would you say this about any mitzvah? Kashrus, for example?

↑ BlueRose52 ↓

Wed, Mar 05 2014, 9:03 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

I see what you're saying. And I think that's great. And I'd agree that many people are probably just like you. But I know many people who don't feel comfortable with many of the rules and would like some freedom. They don't think it would be so terrible if they decided one day to wear open toed sandals. Or maybe not be as covered up as much as they usually are. But they never would act on that.

Because of fear.

↑ PinkFridge ↓

Wed, Mar 05 2014, 9:12 pm

BlueRose52 wrote:

I don't know about you but I'm still in galus. We're living in an imperfect world and it may not be getting better. So sad so that so many people are living in unhealthy and dysfunctional situations. I don't know why it seems to be systemic. I still can't condemn the framework I live in.
It's like saying that since there is so much unhealthy stress on excellence and elitism in our schools and mosdos that it's not healthy to stress an enternal value such as the primacy of Torah. Oh wait, there are people who are doing that.

↑ MaBelleVie

Wed, Mar 05 2014, 9:15 pm

I don't think that the goal of living a halachic lifestyle is to feel comfortable with every practice. Sometimes it's a side benefit, sometimes not.

↑ BlueRose52 ↓

Wed, Mar 05 2014, 9:17 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

I'm really not sure what you're getting at. Who was condemning anything?

↑ miami85 ↓

Wed, Mar 05 2014, 9:24 pm

bruriyah wrote:

I've been following this conversation for a while, and I feel I need to speak up. The big difference between Bluerose and RochelRivka is that RochelRivka knows Leah's family. I too know the family, I was at her house many times. I knew Leah growing up, that she had a reputation of a "troublemaker" and then she "disappeared". I knew her sisters well too. One was my teacher, one was in high school with me. When I was single I was a frequent Shabbos guest in their homes in Brooklyn. Both Rabbi and Mrs. Miller were my teachers in high school. Rabbi Miller was beloved by his congregants for 25 years because he very "down-to-earth". He had a very fine balance of secular and kodesh--he would give an in depth sermon Shabbos morning, but on Purim would sing spoofs of the Beatles that he wrote. In an out of town community such as Pittsburgh it can be hard to maintain a "yeshivish" lifestyle because it's mostly modern orthodox or balabatish or Lubavitch (My family was balabatish, but now I lean yeshivishe). I know that the "yeshivishe" families in Pittsburgh tended to be more insular with their policies because I guess it was necessary. I only read the sample chapter in the book (Kindle) but the first chapter stuck out in my mind that they went to get videos. Which tells you that they were somewhat "normal".

I work in a public high school where I see how the teenage girls dress--to get attention. I don't know if Leah mentions this in the book but she lived less than 2 blocks away from a Major public high school, and I wouldn't be surprised if that influenced her family to make some of those decisions. I also know that Mrs. Miller (someone that I admire) had a firm stance on her observance. She has choshuve yichus from Scotland and I know she was a big believer in tznius as something beautiful for a bas yisroel.

As much as the book intrigues me, I don't know that I want to read it, because it is only Leah's perspective. In her transcript on the reddit forum she said that she didn't get her parents' perspective on some incidents in the book. On Oprah she was unreceptive of her father's letter. To me that tells me that she's not interested in the truth. It pains me very much to see how this situation played out in the public forum. For as much as the Millers are about tznius, this is as untzanua as it gets.

shnitzel ↓

Thu, Mar 06 2014, 1:07 am

Ruchelrivka wrote:

You do realize that your invalidating her completely because she isn't "normal" and won't conform and is mentally ill. Which is kind of the point of the book. We throw out anyone who doesn't fit our narrow definition of a bas yisroel to the dogs.

I do see red flags in the book but at the same time the first half of her book is extremely on target and her observations are very keen. I can't be the only one who has had friends whose parents have said horrible things to them over a tight shirt or middle of the night visits from friends who were caught talking to boys. None of that is even slightly far fetched.

↑ Isramom8

Thu, Mar 06 2014, 1:19 am

Poster above, no, we don't throw an unbalanced child to the dogs, but we don't accept his or her perception of life as objective reality. We would assume that parents try to help an unstable child by trying various approaches, which, if the child has issues, are likely to be perceived in a negative light no matter what.

groisamomma

Thu, Mar 06 2014, 2:50 am

Isramom8 wrote:

^^This^^

↑ chaiz

Thu, Mar 06 2014, 3:02 am

miami85 wrote:

The big difference between Bluerose and RochelRivka is that RochelRivka knows Leah's family. I too know the family, I was at her house many times. I knew Leah growing up, that she had a reputation of a "troublemaker" and then she "disappeared".

You may know the family, but there are people who know Leah from when she was older and know that it is not so simple to just say that Leah has issues and her parents were perfect. It does not make a difference how choshuv her yichus was. That is totally irrelevant. No one honest is going to say that Leah's perception is the truth, but at the same time one who is honest will have to realize that her parents contributed to the dynamic.

↑ imasoftov ↓

Thu, Mar 06 2014, 6:01 am

chaiz wrote:

I'm scratching my head about the mention of yichus, too.

↑ imasinger

Thu, Mar 06 2014, 7:04 am

Sometimes, even in the best of families, there can be a particularly bad chemistry between parents and one or two children. We befriended one such young person. The parents are highly respected, generally lovely people. They have a fine relationship with their other kids. But this one had issues that pushed their buttons, and both sides overreacted in many wrong ways.

So, really, it is believable that Leah's parents are in general lovely people, but that there were mistakes made here on their part as well as on hers.

It's sad.

↑ Mama Bear

Thu, Mar 06 2014, 1:37 pm

She is being interviewed right now on the Stunt show on the Nachum Segal network. She's really articulate and sweet sounding.