Cut Me Loose - By Leah Vincent. Anyone read it? Thoughts?

↑ cookiecutter

Mon, Jan 27 2014, 4:57 pm

amother wrote:

If they have a good story to tell, then tell it and we will listen. Surely you acknowledge that the frum world has made considerable strides in listening and addressing problems lately.

When someone exagerates their story its because they are afraid that their unembellished version is not worthy of notice. And because they exagerate it makes it difficult to take seriously.

I would be intersted in a real raw honest story. I would listen.

B***S***. You would not listen. The proof is that each of these stories has truth in it, but you and the rest of the people in this thread are focusing on things like, "How could she say she her parents paid for her to fly to Manchester, when everyone knows you have to go through Heathrow!?!?"

Furthermore, even if it's true that she's worried people wouldn't notice her "un-embellished version", that doesn't mean they shouldn't notice it. Unless you can contest her basic premise, at worst it's like claiming that smoking kills everyone when in fact it only kills most people, in order to discourage the greatest number of people from smoking.

↑ PinkFridge ↓

Mon, Jan 27 2014, 5:09 pm

marina wrote:

I heard the interview- doesn't she explicitly explain that there are different groups and what she said are only her experiences in her little group? I'm pretty sure she says that right at the outset.

Thanks for bringing that up. I noticed that the pictures did eventually come through, I probably could have listened too. Glad I was dlkz!

↑ PinkFridge ↓

Mon, Jan 27 2014, 5:13 pm

BlueRose52 wrote:

I guess I shouldn't be surprised at this view. I believed it too for many years. I guess if that's really what you believe, there's nothing to say to change your mind.

But one question: I suppose if some messed up OTDer said that his parents davened for him to die, we could write it off as an attention seeker making some outrageous accusations to garner attention and justify his yetzer hara, but what can we use to dismiss it when it's a gadol who says it?

The gadol didn't say it. He said that people came to him. We don't know those people. They could have had problems too. It's all part of an ongoing series in Mishpacha, Rabbi Grylak's column, for anyone who wants to follow.
The upshot was that while there might be some parents in extreme pain from the incredible, horrific descent of their children, yes, it's possible that some of those people who came to Rav Shteinman, shlit"a, needed some reality checking. Which I think they're getting.

↑ PinkFridge ↓

Mon, Jan 27 2014, 5:16 pm

dimyona wrote:

I know that the discussion has meandered to a general discussion of OTD's, but based on the reviews I've read, this book is not about the frum community or its problems. It's about Leah's life and struggles, and although they may be exaggerated or incomplete, I'm not sure how that's relevant to other accounts and polemics against Orthodox lifestyles.

She writes about struggling in a scary city, her family's reactions to her nonconformist choices, and in general, a very personal account of her life as an individual.

I haven't read the book so maybe it's unfair of me to comment but let me just say this: WE see the nuances. Not everyone else does. I'll try to post a link to a review I have but can't get to it now.

↑ BlueRose52 ↓

Mon, Jan 27 2014, 5:18 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

The gadol didn't say it. He said that people came to him.

That's exactly what I'm saying. The gadol attested to the fact that there are people who are asking for him to daven that their OTD children should die. But if an OTD person had said something this outrageous, he'd be dismissed as a liar who's just saying such a thing to make the frum world look bad, justify his leaving, etc.

↑ PinkFridge ↓

Mon, Jan 27 2014, 5:19 pm

BlueRose52 wrote:

Sorry to make you go the trouble. It was just important to clarify, even though I knew you knew, so that people wouldn't think that a gadol was advocating that.

↑ amother ↓

Tue, Jan 28 2014, 5:01 pm

MaBelleVie wrote:

I also think it's interesting that the psychiatrist has been brought up a couple of times but not expanded upon. As much as Leah tries to blame her self injurious behaviors and dysfunctional relationships on her upbringing, I have to wonder what her mental health was and how that influenced her perceptions and choices.

You know, if I were 15 and my parents would tell me that they would call Dr. Menkins and have him lock me up (for saying that I want to go to college) then I wouldnt have a negative reaction to it unless I had a previous experience/association with said Dr.

Did Leah have a previous experience with this psychiatrist and/or was locked up (before she was sent to Manchester)? If not, then why did she have such an extreme negative reaction to this "threat"?

↑ PinkFridge ↓

Tue, Jan 28 2014, 5:02 pm

amother wrote:

I must be missing something. Scratching Head

↑ amother ↓

Tue, Jan 28 2014, 5:07 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

I must be missing something. Scratching Head

She mentions in the book that when she told her mother that she wants to go to college, her mother responded by saying that she will call Dr. X (dont remember the name leah used) and have him lock her up. This scared Leah tremendously. Why? If she never had any experiences with a psychiatrist before then and was never locked up then why would she have such a negative reaction to it?

↑ dimyona ↓

Tue, Jan 28 2014, 5:10 pm

amother wrote:

I think the threat of being locked up altogether is pretty scary. Does it make a difference whether it's the tooth fairy or a doctor that's turning the key?

↑ PinkFridge ↓

Tue, Jan 28 2014, 5:20 pm

dimyona wrote:

I think the threat of being locked up altogether is pretty scary. Does it make a difference whether it's the tooth fairy or a doctor that's turning the key?

Yeah, it just strikes me as bizarre. No, wait, I'm sure that Rabbi Yakov Horowitz, Rabbi Ackerman, and many others in the trenches recommend that. I'll go to rabbihorowitz.com and search for articles on locking up rebellious kids Wink

ETA: and defining rebellious.

↑ amother ↓

Tue, Jan 28 2014, 5:24 pm

dimyona wrote:

I think the threat of being locked up altogether is pretty scary. Does it make a difference whether it's the tooth fairy or a doctor that's turning the key?

Not sure what you're asking. What does a fictional character have anything to do with scenario?

What does being locked up mean? What did it mean to Leah? Leah knew exactly who the Dr. was (without her mother saying that he is a psychiatrist), so how did she know that the Dr is a psychiatrist? How did she know what a psychiatrist is and what he does if she never had any prior experiences with said Dr.? (remember that she is saying that she grew up in a sheltered yeshivishe household so she would presumably not have any real knowledge of a psychiatrist since psychiatry is outside of the realm of yeshivishe community.)

↑ dimyona ↓

Tue, Jan 28 2014, 5:30 pm

amother wrote:

I apologize; I used a whimsical example to try to make a point. I'm not sure what your perception of the yeshivish community is, but unless a teenager is sorely lacking in vocabulary and common sense, most girls of that age would easily know the definition of the word psychiatrist. And perhaps Leah had visited this doctor in the past, which I assume is what you are inferring. This wouldn't be surprising. Many frum parents treat rebellion against religion as a sign of mental illness.

Either way, the concept of having a doctor lock someone up in a mental institution is a pretty dark threat, and one that could have carried real weight. Minors have very few rights when it comes to decisions about their health.

↑ amother ↓

Tue, Jan 28 2014, 5:42 pm

dimyona wrote:

Again, Leah's mother didnt say that she will call the psychiatrist, she only mentions the name of the dr. How did Leah know that he was a psychiatrist? How did Leah know what he does if she never had any prior experiences with him/

Leah mentions nothing about being rebellious as a teenager. Leah mentions nothing about being treated by a psychiatrist for being rebellious. If Leah's account is true then she never saw a psychiatrist while still living with her parents so they obviously didnt think that she needed to see a psychiatrist for mental illness due to rebellion. So how would she know who this psychiatrist is and what he does if she never had any prior experiences with him?

↑ amother ↓

Tue, Jan 28 2014, 5:47 pm

amother wrote:

Just want to clarify, Leah mentions nothing about being rebellious as a teenager while still living at home in Pittsburgh. Her so called rebellion started after she left home.

↑ dimyona

Tue, Jan 28 2014, 5:51 pm

amother wrote:

You really seem set on harping on this point, but since I don't believe it's essential to this story, this will be my last response about this.

Who says she knew who this doctor was? They said they'll call Dr. X to lock her up. Perhaps she had visited this doctor, perhaps not. Maybe she suffered from mental illness, maybe she didn't. What's the difference? I don't think that omitting every doctor appointment and mental or physical diagnoses is misleading. She has a right to keep some parts of her story to her self. And of all things, this one portion of her account seems rather trivial in the big picture.

↑ amother ↓

Tue, Jan 28 2014, 6:04 pm

BlueRose52 wrote:

amother, IHMO, your questions are a perfect example of the ridiculous lengths some will go to in order to discredit a person who says something they don't like.

I think its fascinating that a highly educated ex-yeshivishe Footsteps darling and board member is seen as someone who could do no wrong and be completely honest about everything she writes and any questions about her story is dismissed. Not just by the otd community but by the religious community as well. Why isnt she being held to the same standard that other memoirists are held on? Why is any criticism regarding her book, dismissed?