Top Ten Things Not to Say to a Kofer

↑ PinkFridge ↓

Sun, Sep 22 2013, 9:01 am

octopus wrote:

fromthedepths wrote:

detroitmom wrote:

I haven't posted a thing in two years but why not now. I am OTD. I don't think I'm better, or more intellectual etc. than anyone else. I don't begrudge people their frumkeit and most of the time people don't begrudge me my right to be frei. I have gotten quite a few nasty comments but hey, that's life. Frum women should realize one thing - people are leaving in droves. you never know who's secretly OTD and plotting their escape. The future doesn't look bright for the future of frumkeit unless the rabbis find something better to do than ban stuff.

People are also joining in droves. And having lots of kids, KA"H. The frum community has, B"H, grown tremendously over the last several decades. I see a much brighter future. I see so much learning and personal growth going on. I see many many inspired, committed Jews who go through life with the awareness that they're constantly in Hashem's presence. And it's contagious.

I'm in the middle of reading this thread, and I just have to say this- while it does matter that ppl are "joining in droves" it should worry the depths of our community that yes! ppl are leaving in droves. we are bleeding out. and I have said this before. it's very worrisome. most ppl that I know do not leave because of intellectual reaons. they are leaving because they felt isolated, judged, had no emotional connection, etc. We are obviously doing something wrong as a community.

Yes, it is worrisome, and should call for soul-searching, collective and individual. And yet historically through our history, during times of persecution as well as since the enlightenment, there's been hemorrhaging.

↑ PinkFridge ↓

Sun, Sep 22 2013, 9:08 am

marina wrote:

fromthedepths wrote:

marina wrote:

The type of unrelated example you give bears a lot on the discussion that follows.

Specifically, you give us an example of where someone is actively harming themselves in a medically-provable way. So yes, we are all going to agree that she is doing something wrong and then we must all feel bad for her inability to control herself. Poor little weak-willed cake-eater. Then you urge us not to judge her, but we will anyway.

But Marina, I do believe, or rather, know for a fact Wink

, that anyone who violates Halacha is harming themselves. Whether youbelieve it or not, this is what I believe, and if you want to be my friend you'll have to accept that about me Smile

.

And no, I don't think we will judge the cake eater. At least I won't, because I can very much relate to the example. I'm trying to stay off sugar. Most of the time, I succeed. But not always.

Quote:

In sum, the more passionately you believe in something, the more passionately you will want to convince others of the truth of your beliefs and the more likely it is you will consider the others to be WRONG if they disagree with you and in need of your caring concern on that topic.

But I am very passionate about my beliefs! Since when it is wrong to be passionate? But I don't go around judging people or looking down at them. I believe in learning from everybody. I wouldn't learn Torah from somebody who doesn't share my beliefs, but I could learn other things from them. Everyone has some admirable qualities.

You don't have to be either PC or wishy-washy about your own beliefs in order to get along with people, IME.

There is nothing wrong with being passionate. But let's just all admit that with passion comes judgment.

We judge those who don't share our passions in direct proportion to how passionate we are about them.

Here are some of the people I judge:

I judge people who scream at their kids. Of course, I also sometimes yell at my kids. So I can muster up a drop of empathy for those screamers and think in my head that "maybe that crazy mom in aisle 4 is having a bad day," but at some point my empathy will fade. In fact, chances are that my empathy will fade at just about the same time the screaming mom does something I've never done or something I've managed to train myself not to do. Because most people buy into the idea that "if I can do it, why the hell can't the mom in aisle 4?"

I judge people who violate the law. Of course, I also sometimes violate the law. For example, I speed. So I can muster up a drop of empathy for a speeder and think in my head that "maybe that speeder is just in a huge rush," but at some point my empathy will fade. In fact, chances are that my empathy will fade at just about the same time the speeder exceeds the highest speed limit I have ever traveled. Because most people buy into the idea that "if I can go under 95 mph, why the hell can't that speeding Toyota camri?"

Same with your prediabetic cake-eater. You have a certain amount of empathy for her, but only a certain amount. After she does something that you have never done, say eat enough sugar to end up in a diabetic coma and leave her kids without a parent, your empathy well may run dry I think.

If you disagree with this premise, please share an example of a behavior that is very wrong and so wrong that you have never even come close to doing it and that you still wouldn't judge the person for.

Now this is a very interesting piece on nekudas habechira!

↑ amother ↓

Sun, Sep 22 2013, 9:37 am

PinkFridge wrote:

marina wrote:

fromthedepths wrote:

marina wrote:

But Marina, I do believe, or rather, know for a fact Wink

, that anyone who violates Halacha is harming themselves. Whether youbelieve it or not, this is what I believe, and if you want to be my friend you'll have to accept that about me Smile

.

And no, I don't think we will judge the cake eater. At least I won't, because I can very much relate to the example. I'm trying to stay off sugar. Most of the time, I succeed. But not always.

Quote:

Now this is a very interesting piece on nekudas habechira!

OTD Amother here,

This is totally off-topic, but the entire time this discussion was going on it reminded me of a discussion that I had on that general topic with a frum friend.

My friend asked me if I thought that if a person does an aveira, it really shows that they are lacking in emuna. (Yes, for some reason my friend still asks me hashkafic questions, which is itself hilarious given that I don't believe in G-d). I replied that I think it does.

She countered by saying that she is overweight and has a family history of diabetes. She 100% believes the science that says that eating sugary foods will make it much more likely that she will get diabetes, but yet she still eats cookies. By the logic used regarding aveiros, wouldn't that be a sign that she doesn't believe the science?

I replied that I didn't think that the two were completely comparable. Regarding the cookies, each individual cookie eaten has a miniscule effect of the probability of getting diabetes, so by choosing to eat a given cookie she isn't making any noticeable difference in the probability of her getting it or getting it by a certain age. Rather, it is the sum of all of the cookies that she eats, combined with any other unhealthy habits, that make diabetes likely in her future. Of course, the whole here is a sum of its parts, and therefore if she wants to avoid diabetes she shouldn't eat cookies, but at the time she could both easily and correctly say that the individual cookie doesn't really matter. Also, she could resolve to make a point of exercising later to work it off, in which case it really may not matter.

If, however, she would somehow know for certain that the particular cookie that she is eating would cause her to get diabetes when she wouldn't have otherwise, then she wouldn't eat the cookie. (She agreed).

And that is why her analogy regarding emunah fails. It implicitly assumes that each aveira in isolation is insignificant, and that it is only the sum of aveiros that matters in the long run. While many people do seem to view Judaism that way, that isn't consistent with what Judaism actually says. My friend agreed that proper emuna requires viewing each aveira as significant, and that therefore her analogy was incorrect.

There you have it, folks. Today's lesson on emuna from someone without any.

↑ PinkFridge

Sun, Sep 22 2013, 10:00 am

amother wrote:

PinkFridge wrote:

marina wrote:

fromthedepths wrote:

marina wrote:

But Marina, I do believe, or rather, know for a fact Wink

, that anyone who violates Halacha is harming themselves. Whether youbelieve it or not, this is what I believe, and if you want to be my friend you'll have to accept that about me Smile

.

And no, I don't think we will judge the cake eater. At least I won't, because I can very much relate to the example. I'm trying to stay off sugar. Most of the time, I succeed. But not always.

Quote:

Now this is a very interesting piece on nekudas habechira!

Flip side: each mitzvah is significant too!

↑ amother ↓

Sun, Sep 22 2013, 10:12 am

PinkFridge wrote:

amother wrote:

Flip side: each mitzvah is significant too!

And the same reasoning applies.

I fully believe the science that says exercising improves health, and choosing not to exercise on a given day in order to watch TV instead does not negate that, because that one brief act of exercise wouldn't make a big difference and it could be made up by exercising some other time when I otherwise would not have.

However, if someone refrains from doing a mizvas asei that they could reasonably easily do, it does show a lack of emuna, for the same reasons mentioned in my previous post.

↑ the world's best mom

Sun, Sep 22 2013, 11:13 am

amother wrote:

the world's best mom wrote:

I may get bashed big time for this, but here's my opinion:

If I firmly believe that there is amazing reward awaiting us in the next world, and I see people giving it up because they don't believe that it exists, I have to be sad for them. They may be making their place in this temporary world more pleasant for themselves, but it is coming at the expense of their life in Olam HaEmes. And I know, you guys will tell me you don't believe there is an Olam HaBah, or you don't believe you will be rewarded there for the Mitzvos you did here. But to me it's like a blind man walking right towards a cliff because he can't see it so he doesn't believe it's there.

That said, I have never said any of the comments posted to anyone who was off the Derech, nor did I plan to.

Amother from page 3 again

What you are saying makes perfect sense to me. If you believe that Torah is true, you will certainly feel that someone who doesn't have it is lacking.

I actually find it somewhat interesting, however, that you chose to focus on olam haba specifically. When I was frum, gaining or losing schar in olam haba never factored into my decision to do mitzvos or not do aveiros. While I believed in olam haba, of course, I rarely thought about it at all. My focus was simply on serving Hashem, who I believed was the ultimate source of everything, to the best of my abilities. I felt that the ability to do actions that actively made the world better somehow, which every mitzvah is supposed to do, was a very important responsibility. I will admit that it was an incredibly powerful feeling to feel that every action that I made, from the most mundane to the most significant, actually mattered. That also motivated me to often go beyond the letter of the law--I didn't view the chumros that I kept as burdens, but rather as opportunities to do more good things. And yes, if someone had asked me then, I would have felt that someone who wasn't frum was missing out on that.

However, keep in mind that now that I am no longer frum, I often feel the same way about people who miss out on things in this world on the basis of something that I don't believe actually exists.

The issue here is that of respecting the decisions that other people make. You are making your decision based on your beliefs, and I am making my decisions based on mine. You can feel that I am missing out on something, and I can feel that you are missing out on something. Just respect that I take my beliefs about the world as seriously as I take yours, so pretending to be frum "just in case" simply isn't an option for me.

I'd like to comment on the 2 segments that I bolded. First, you wrote how empowered you felt- in this world- by doing Hashem's will. Then you express your sympathies for all those Frum people who are missing out on life's great pleasures due to their Frumkeit.

Now, if I were given the choice to either feel empowered and to believe I was faithfully doing all Hashem wanted me to, or to enjoy a delicious ham sandwich, I would definitely choose the former. In fact, I do choose the former, numerous times every day. Because the first choice is a lasting feeling that changes the way I view myself and my role in life, while the second choice is a ham sandwich that will be gone in a few minutes, leaving me with nothing but guilt. So please try not to feel bad for me that I am missing out on my ham sandwiches, thank you.

Now back to my blind man Mashal- The blind man may be quite content walking towards the cliff. He will tell you that he doesn't believe there is a cliff because he can't see it, and he's so enjoying his refreshing walk through the mountains, and isn't it a shame that you refuse to join him, because you are really missing out on a lot of invigorating fresh air and exercise. Am I supposed to respect his beliefs and just let him walk? Should I think that maybe I should join him, because it is, after all, a shame to miss out on the walk? I find it difficult to see how to do that.

And so then you will ask, what makes me so sure that my views are correct and you are moving blindly through this world? Now that's a difficult one to answer, but due to events that have happened in my life, I see quite clearly that this can be the only truth. And I'll leave it at that.

↑ amother ↓

Sun, Sep 22 2013, 12:17 pm

Quote:

...I think people confuse honest dialogue with being PC. Many people do pretend the matter doesn't exist. I don't believe in that. I am truly and genuinely pained when I see people going OTD. And I let them know that. I'm not PC. I believe they're missing out on the most important thing in life, and I have no problem sharing this belief with them.

However, I do not think of them or speak to them in a condescending way. And I think this is the key, and the common theme in Marina's 10 things. It is not up to us, or any human being, to evaluate another person's avodas Hashem. For all I know, if I was given the same life circumstances as these people I would have also been OTD. Rav Tzadok Hacohen wrote that sometimes we're given tests we cannot possibly withstand.

As a frum Jew, I believe my task, and my test, is to try to put myself in another person's shoes, listen, empathize, and be there for them. We can also let them know that the way back is always open to them. Not because I need them to be frum in order to be friends - not at all, but because I truly believe that they have much to gain if they come back.

It's clear that you're really sincere in your love and concern for your fellow Jew. However, I have to say, even though you have the good sense not to speak condescendingly to people, your attitude still seems incredibly condescending to me. It reminds me of a recording someone recently posted online of a conversation between an OTD person and a guy trying to be mekarev him, and while the kiruv guy spoke to him in a very kind and sweet and well-meaning manner, and like you, was very much pained by his friend's choice to leave frumkeit, the condescension that came from him was just unmistakable.

Where I can hear this recording?

↑ marina

Sun, Sep 22 2013, 1:05 pm

fromthedepths wrote:

Marina wrote:

Quote:

If you disagree with this premise, please share an example of a behavior that is very wrong and so wrong that you have never even come close to doing it and that you still wouldn't judge the person for.

Sure. Let's take your example of a mother screaming at her kids. Suppose you know that she grew up in a very abusive home. Suppose you know that she's been in therapy for years, has taken parenting classes, and has worked very hard on stopping the cycle of abuse. Suppose you know that she's improved significantly, and hasn't screamed at her children in over a month. Suppose you know that on this particular day she was up all night, has a headache, is totally stressed, etc. If you have this background information and you witness this mother screaming at her kids would you feel anything other than compassion for her?

That's the essence of judging favorably. And that's what we're obligated to do as frum Jews.

Judging favorably is a piece of cake when you know all these things. It's like saying, oy, I know this person murdered her husband, but I know that it was in self-defense b/c he had a gun on her. What's to judge?

We're discussing judging favorably when you don't know anything other than the very basics. The mom is in aisle 4 and she's screaming at her kids. If she's just screaming "stop knocking down the canned goods Moishy!" we might judge her favorably b/c we've all been there. If, in contrast, she's screaming "Moishy, you are such a worthless child and I wish you were never born!" we're probably not going to judge her favorably. At most, we'll hope that she has a mental illness and that social services will take Moishy away soon and we'll pity both her and Moishy.

↑ ora_43 ↓

Sun, Sep 22 2013, 1:17 pm

amother wrote:

I think that argument would only make sense if someone is only occasionally overeating, or if someone is only sometimes skipping a workout.

If someone is overeating to the point where they're overweight, or skipping exercise to the point where they're out of shape, then your friend is right - she's doing something despite knowing 100% it will have a negative result. I don't think the fact that it's a cumulative effect changes that. It's the same idea as it would be if your friend would be overweight from eating a single cookie, just change the wording a little (ie "consistently overeating despite knowing the danger is like doing an aveira despite knowing it's an aveira," instead of "eating a cookie is like.... ").

The point is, people do things all the time despite knowing 100% the results will be bad. People procrastinate on papers, people buy things they can't afford on credit, people say things in anger that they know will upset their loved ones, etc. And many of those things are "normal" things to do even if they make no sense.

I do think you could say that doing an aveira shows a lack of emuna, in that it shows that at that precise moment, the person probably managed to ignore the idea of Hashem, schar v'onesh, etc, to some extent. Although it could also be that, like the single-cookie-eating person, they kept those things in mind but managed to convince themselves that it was just this one time and just once isn't such a big deal ("nobody never speaks lashon hara... "), or that in this case, it wasn't such a bad thing to do, or that Hashem would understand.

But I think your friend's example is a good one. Because doing an aveira only indicates a lack of faith to the same extent that overeating does - ie, not a complete lack of belief in the basic concepts (Hashem, Torah and reward and punishment/ calories and the effects of their over-consumption), more of a "I know it's true but maybe in my case it will turn out OK," or "I know it's true, but the long-term consequences are too far from my experience for me to fully comprehend, while the immediate reward isn't."

↑ ora_43

Sun, Sep 22 2013, 1:35 pm

marina wrote:

But she's not talking about knowing those things for sure, she's talking about how we can consider them as possibilities in order to not judge. Like, if I believe cheating on a partner is 100% wrong, I can still think, "Oh, but maybe that person is acting against her own best interests because of emotional issues of her own, maybe if I were in her shoes I'd have done even worse," rather than, "She's definitely acting cruelly, she's definitely worse than me because I wouldn't do that" - even if I have no idea what the other woman's emotional state is or how I'd handle having her life.

Similarly, I think a person can think it's wrong for a Jew not to keep mitzvot, yet not believe that s/he would be shomer mitzvot if placed in the shoes of any of the people who aren't.

Quote:

We're discussing judging favorably when you don't know anything other than the very basics. The mom is in aisle 4 and she's screaming at her kids. If she's just screaming "stop knocking down the canned goods Moishy!" we might judge her favorably b/c we've all been there. If, in contrast, she's screaming "Moishy, you are such a worthless child and I wish you were never born!" we're probably not going to judge her favorably. At most, we'll hope that she has a mental illness and that social services will take Moishy away soon and we'll pity both her and Moishy.

I'm not sure that this has to do with passion and judgment. I wouldn't hope that someone intervenes in the family because I think the mom is a terrible person and "I'd never do that" - I'd hope that someone intervenes for Moishy's sake.

I think there are a few factors involved.
1. How one perceives the action - is it right or wrong, and how firmly do I believe that?
2. To what extent do I think the other person should realize that what they are doing is wrong? Eg. are we talking about a 6-year-old saying something racist, a 20-year-old echoing racism they've heard around them in a racist society, or a 50-year-old saying something racist despite having been educated against it?
3. To what extent do their actions affect others? Are we talking someone getting drunk and running with the bulls in Spain, or someone getting drunk and getting behind the wheel of their car?
4. Have I ever experienced strong temptation to do this same thing? and is it the kind of thing I'd do today?
5. How good is my imagination, and how motivated am I to use it to think of reasons this person might not be as bad as my knee-jerk reaction is telling me they are?

These things together all determine the extent to which I'll judge the other person. So for example, someone who believes in Hashem and Torah might be pulled toward judging someone who is not shomer mitzvot based on factor #1 and factor #4, yet be drawn in the other direction based on factors #2, #3 and #5.