Top Ten Things Not to Say to a Kofer

↑ fromthedepths ↓

Wed, Sep 18 2013, 8:38 am

I would say something even stronger. The whole point of this world is to partner with Hashem through Torah and mitzvos, in order to rectify the world, which leads to open revelation of Hashem's Oneness and goodness. A Jew who goes through life without Torah and mitzvos is missing the whole point of life.

Of course, as I said before, it's not our job to judge. At the same time, it is our job to distinguish between right and wrong, for ourselves. So, for example, if I see someone violating Shabbos I have to be absolutely clear for myself that they're doing something wrong. There is no reason to whitewash it. At the same time, I can also be absolutely clear that it is not my job to judge, that I don't know the whole picture, that perhaps it's outside of their free will not to violate Shabbos. We can love them and accept them just the way they are, while at the same time, being clear for ourselves on what is right and what is wrong.

Now, whether I would say this to an OTD person depends on my relationship with them. If I barely know them, of course, I wouldn't say anything. There are plenty of other topics of conversation. If it's someone close to me, OTOH, who knows how much I care about them and knows that my relationship with them is not dependent on their religious beliefs or level of observance, then I would say it. For two reasons. One is that I would want to be completely honest and open with them. I wouldn't want to pretend that I agree with their views or choices. It would be their part to accept me the way I am, with all my strong opinions, which I have plenty of Wink

. And the second reason is that I care about them and would like to share something that is very very important to me. Of course, if they are not interested, I wouldn't bring it up again. But if our relationship is close enough they would feel comfortable saying straight out that they're not interested, and I would change the subject.

With the person I mentioned a couple of pages ago, I did say all of that, and he shared his views and feelings. In the end, we agreed to disagree and we're still friends. But I'm glad that we had this conversation and are clear on what each of us believes and feels. I think it's important in any relationship. Being PC only gets in the way of close relationships.

↑ fromthedepths ↓

Wed, Sep 18 2013, 8:59 am

BlueRose52 wrote:

fromthedepths wrote:

Of course, as I said before, it's not our job to judge. At the same time, it is our job to distinguish between right and wrong, for ourselves. So, for example, if I see someone violating Shabbos I have to be absolutely clear for myself that they're doing something wrong.

I don't understand. Isn't declaring the actions of another person as right or wrong exactly the meaning of "judging"? Maybe what you mean is that you don't judge the person as good or bad, but you're judging the actions as right or wrong?

Yes and no. To give a completely unrelated example. Let's say a friend is pre-diabetic and I see her eating a piece of cake. Is she doing something right or wrong? Clearly, wrong. At the same time, I wouldn't judge her. I'd empathize. It must be very hard for her not to be able to eat cake. So this particular time she couldn't resist. Maybe the urge was so strong that controlling herself was outside of her control. It's not my job to judge her. It is my job, as a close friend, to express my concern. Not in a judgmental or condescending way, but in a truly caring and concerned way.

Of course, I'm not all comparing eating cake to being OTD. I'm just giving an example where I can believe that someone is wrong but not judge them for it.

↑ PinkFridge ↓

Wed, Sep 18 2013, 11:40 am

fromthedepths wrote:

BlueRose52 wrote:

fromthedepths wrote:

There's a mishna, don't judge your friend until you stand (reach) in his place. Without looking at any meforshim, here are some thoughts:
- one must be seeing a friend do something s/he feel is incorrect. However, because this person is a friend, one will not come to the obvious conclusion or judge.
- IIRC the use of the word friend, at least in another context with a different lashon*, might imply that this friend is one's peer in observance. However, I think it might also be appropriate to take the use of the word friend at face value. Just because someone is going off the beaten track doesn't mean that one can't treat her with friendship, cordiality, the respect due any tzelem Elokim.

Just my take on judging vs. judgmentaling.

ETA this P.S. As much as I think Yael can keep who she wants on this group, if anyone is not comfortable with a member, contact Yael or the moderators. If someone comes on this list, and yes, she may start some "interesting discussions" and have views that veer dangerously off the reservation, well, if that's ALL that she does, I don't know if she belongs here. I don't think it's up for discussion in a private forum, friends group, etc. but should be discussed with the most appropriate people, l'toeles only.

*I'm thinking of b'tzedek sishpot es amisecha. I might be wrong.

Lady A

Wed, Sep 18 2013, 3:23 pm

As someone who converted into this lifestyle, I can say that had I know totally what I would be dealing with down the line, I would not have done it.

There are many stressors in this lifestyle, especially when bubbe is not around the corner to pitch in when you need a hand. I have also seen extremisim spread like wild fire in the past 10 years and some that I have been frum. People are asking me when I am going to have my daughter wear only long sleeves and she is only 6.
I think each person must be judged individually. There is a lot of pressure to conform to a certain standard. There is also a lot of pressure when all of your children are supposed to go to a day school and a Jewish camp and everything else. Each child has different needs and it is not so simple.
Before a yontif is always taxing on me. So many preparations, very little cash, and so many expectations. It is a lot to handle.
I would so if you are going to judge people who go OTD, do so gently.You never know the pressures they are under. And the reasons for going OTD are not just to live a wild, care free lifestyle.

↑ mimivan

Thu, Sep 19 2013, 9:35 am

princessleah wrote:

I don't get something.
It seems that there is an underlying message here implying that 'intellectual' reasons are valid for going OTD, while 'emotional' ones are not.
While I understand the argument of 'don't judge the religion by its practitioners', I'm not full on board. There was someone in my HS who said his grandparents were not observant because one time a frum Jew was rude to them. That is obviously extreme, and somewhat silly (although in retrospect I doubt that was the whole story).

But what if someone DOES go fully OTD because of emotional reasons? What if the person was abused, and found no support in the community, and decided-- this life is not for me? What if a person just gets fed up with hypocrisy-- is it incumbent upon them to go find people who aren't hypocrites? What if they just don't feel a connection to God and decide it's not worth all the sacrifice?

What is implicit in this thread is that we are still judging the people who go OTD, and weighing whether their reasons are 'legit' or not. Who are we to say? Why is one form considered more OK than another?

where do we draw the line between intellectual and emotional reasons. Being sick of the hypocrisy could be an intellectual reason. Not having support in an abuse situation is also logical I.e. if there is no support why stay? It seems there are both intellectual and emotional reasons. As a divorced woman who was made an agunah and badly mistreated during my marriage and divorce, it is only logical that I would not want to marry someone again that comes from a derech that does not allow for a halachic prenup. That is in "intellectual" reason for not marrying a certain derech. But the bad associations from certain types also come into play---and the two are intextricably linked. I wouldn't want to be in a community that does not allow a halachic prenup because I don't want to marry into a derech that doesn't find halachic solutions to protecting women. Both intellectual and emotional reasons (and I'm not OTD, but there can be a lot of soul searching in finger pointing to simply becoming "less chareidi" for instance)>

octopus

Sat, Sep 21 2013, 7:53 pm

fromthedepths wrote:

detroitmom wrote:

I haven't posted a thing in two years but why not now. I am OTD. I don't think I'm better, or more intellectual etc. than anyone else. I don't begrudge people their frumkeit and most of the time people don't begrudge me my right to be frei. I have gotten quite a few nasty comments but hey, that's life. Frum women should realize one thing - people are leaving in droves. you never know who's secretly OTD and plotting their escape. The future doesn't look bright for the future of frumkeit unless the rabbis find something better to do than ban stuff.

People are also joining in droves. And having lots of kids, KA"H. The frum community has, B"H, grown tremendously over the last several decades. I see a much brighter future. I see so much learning and personal growth going on. I see many many inspired, committed Jews who go through life with the awareness that they're constantly in Hashem's presence. And it's contagious.

I'm in the middle of reading this thread, and I just have to say this- while it does matter that ppl are "joining in droves" it should worry the depths of our community that yes! ppl are leaving in droves. we are bleeding out. and I have said this before. it's very worrisome. most ppl that I know do not leave because of intellectual reaons. they are leaving because they felt isolated, judged, had no emotional connection, etc. We are obviously doing something wrong as a community.

↑ marina ↓

Sat, Sep 21 2013, 11:39 pm

fromthedepths wrote:

BlueRose52 wrote:

fromthedepths wrote:

The type of unrelated example you give bears a lot on the discussion that follows.

Specifically, you give us an example of where someone is actively harming themselves in a medically-provable way. So yes, we are all going to agree that she is doing something wrong and then we must all feel bad for her inability to control herself. Poor little weak-willed cake-eater. Then you urge us not to judge her, but we will anyway.

Likewise, if you gave us an example of a murderess, we also would all agree she is doing something wrong and we would also judge her despite your exhortations to the contrary.

These examples are clear cut right and wrong issues, and everyone judges.

The point OTD people are making is that the correct comparison is not to cake-eating diabetics or evil murderers, the correct comparison is to attachment parenting or breastfeeding or vegetarianism or some other philosophy or approach that is valid but doesn't necessarily work for everyone.

So let's re-read your comparison again, with the above in mind:

Quote:

To give a completely unrelated example. Let's say a friend just had a baby and I see her formula-feeding her child. Is she doing something right or wrong? Clearly, wrong. At the same time, I wouldn't judge her. I'd empathize. It must be very hard for her not to be able to breastfeed her child like she is supposed to. So this particular time she couldn't resist. Maybe the urge was so strong that controlling herself was outside of her control. It's not my job to judge her. It is my job, as a close friend, to express my concern. Not in a judgmental or condescending way, but in a truly caring and concerned way.

Does that still sound the same? No?

The problem here is that if you didn't believe orthodox Judaism was as clearly right for everyone as abstaining from cake is for diabetics, and instead believed orthodoxy was as valid a choice as is breastfeeding v formula, you probably would not be a very passionate orthodox believer.... maybe you'd even be OTD.

In sum, the more passionately you believe in something, the more passionately you will want to convince others of the truth of your beliefs and the more likely it is you will consider the others to be WRONG if they disagree with you and in need of your caring concern on that topic.

↑ ora_43 ↓

Sat, Sep 21 2013, 11:45 pm

bamamama wrote:

amother wrote:

For former BTs, going off the derech often earns a comment that is very disheartening to hear in conversation: "Well, she was obviously never really frum in the first place." So many BTs sacrificed so much to become orthodox--family relationships that were strained, friendships lost, educational and career opportunities pushed to the side, or lost completely. It makes me think that these BTs were never really accepted in the first place and were always second-class members of frum society.

That's the big rub - the strained family relationships and friendships lost. When you get to a certain point in life, you realize how important family is and you will never really have the extended family a FFB person has and, no matter what people say, it makes a big difference.

To the extent that this is true* it would seem to justify a slightly different response to BTs deciding not to be shomer mitzvot. There's a difference between making that choice despite knowing it will disappoint one's family, and making it knowing it will lead to reconciliation (or at the very least, will be met with approval). Not that the latter is less authentic - but it's different.

Personally I do see a difference between an adult going OTD after many years of being frum (BT or not), and someone who recently started keeping mitzvot, deciding to stop. The latter seems to me not so much a decision to change one's way of life as a decision not to change after all (and much more common - I know many people who were BT for 2-18 months then stopped, but few if any who were frum for 2+ years and stopped).

But other than that, I agree with amother that the essential decision is the same regardless of BT status.

* I'm not trying to discount anyone's experience here, but I think it's important to note that many if not most families-of-BTs and families-of-geirim are very accepting, and that many if not most BTs find their family ties are just as strong as ever despite their decision to live differently than their parents. I do realize that for some people that's unfortunately not the case - I just don't want to see it portrayed as a given that any non-frum/non-Jewish family is going to permanently turn a cold shoulder on someone who decides to be frum.

↑ ora_43 ↓

Sat, Sep 21 2013, 11:49 pm

marina wrote:

The problem here is that if you didn't believe orthodox Judaism was as clearly right for everyone as abstaining from cake is for diabetics, and instead believed orthodoxy was as valid a choice as is breastfeeding v formula, you probably would not be a very passionate orthodox believer.... maybe you'd even be OTD.

I don't get your point here. fromthedepths is trying to explain how she, personally relates to people she's close to deciding not to be shomer mitzvot. It makes sense that she used an example that explains how she, personally views their choice. She never claimed that it was an objective assessment of the situation that her OTD friends would agree with.

↑ fromthedepths ↓

Sun, Sep 22 2013, 12:29 am

marina wrote:

But Marina, I do believe, or rather, know for a fact Wink

, that anyone who violates Halacha is harming themselves. Whether youbelieve it or not, this is what I believe, and if you want to be my friend you'll have to accept that about me Smile

.

And no, I don't think we will judge the cake eater. At least I won't, because I can very much relate to the example. I'm trying to stay off sugar. Most of the time, I succeed. But not always.

Quote:

In sum, the more passionately you believe in something, the more passionately you will want to convince others of the truth of your beliefs and the more likely it is you will consider the others to be WRONG if they disagree with you and in need of your caring concern on that topic.

But I am very passionate about my beliefs! Since when it is wrong to be passionate? But I don't go around judging people or looking down at them. I believe in learning from everybody. I wouldn't learn Torah from somebody who doesn't share my beliefs, but I could learn other things from them. Everyone has some admirable qualities.

You don't have to be either PC or wishy-washy about your own beliefs in order to get along with people, IME.

↑ marina ↓

Sun, Sep 22 2013, 12:43 am

ora_43 wrote:

marina wrote:

I waited for a while after she posted to see if anyone would point out that the comparison only works if you already agree that not keeping Torah and Mitzvos is categorically wrong.

No one pointed that out, so I did.

My more global point is that I don't think it's possible to come up with a realistic I-judge-the-sin-but-not-the-sinner example that we can all agree on, specifically because of this objective/subjective problem.

↑ marina ↓

Sun, Sep 22 2013, 1:09 am

fromthedepths wrote:

marina wrote:

But Marina, I do believe, or rather, know for a fact Wink

, that anyone who violates Halacha is harming themselves. Whether youbelieve it or not, this is what I believe, and if you want to be my friend you'll have to accept that about me Smile

.

And no, I don't think we will judge the cake eater. At least I won't, because I can very much relate to the example. I'm trying to stay off sugar. Most of the time, I succeed. But not always.

Quote:

There is nothing wrong with being passionate. But let's just all admit that with passion comes judgment.

We judge those who don't share our passions in direct proportion to how passionate we are about them.

Here are some of the people I judge:

I judge people who scream at their kids. Of course, I also sometimes yell at my kids. So I can muster up a drop of empathy for those screamers and think in my head that "maybe that crazy mom in aisle 4 is having a bad day," but at some point my empathy will fade. In fact, chances are that my empathy will fade at just about the same time the screaming mom does something I've never done or something I've managed to train myself not to do. Because most people buy into the idea that "if I can do it, why the hell can't the mom in aisle 4?"

I judge people who violate the law. Of course, I also sometimes violate the law. For example, I speed. So I can muster up a drop of empathy for a speeder and think in my head that "maybe that speeder is just in a huge rush," but at some point my empathy will fade. In fact, chances are that my empathy will fade at just about the same time the speeder exceeds the highest speed limit I have ever traveled. Because most people buy into the idea that "if I can go under 95 mph, why the hell can't that speeding Toyota camri?"

Same with your prediabetic cake-eater. You have a certain amount of empathy for her, but only a certain amount. After she does something that you have never done, say eat enough sugar to end up in a diabetic coma and leave her kids without a parent, your empathy well may run dry I think.

If you disagree with this premise, please share an example of a behavior that is very wrong and so wrong that you have never even come close to doing it and that you still wouldn't judge the person for.

↑ marina ↓

Sun, Sep 22 2013, 1:21 am

There's nothing wrong with judging people or looking down on them. I do it all the time. We all do. But I try to be judgmental with my mouth shut most of the time. And if my attitude leaks through what I thought would be a helpful comment, then you can let me know.

For example, say I know a person who is suffering from infertility. I come up to that person and ask them if they've tried to lose weight to fix their reproductive issues. I might think this helpful and caring suggestion concealed my judgment of this person and assumptions about their issues, but really it didn't, and I didn't find out until I came on imamother and read Top Ten Things Not to Say to a Person Without Children.