Terri Schiavo | Imamother

↑ AweSumThenSum ↓

Wed, Mar 23 2005, 6:45 pm

suicide is illegal? u make me laff. so what if it's illegal? who u gonna sue? the person who committed suicide?
I definitely think that terri's case is very fishy from all angles, and that she should b kept alive just on that merit. besides, assuming she did say that she wouldnt wanna b kept alive this way, people have been known to change their minds - even if they cant speak their minds anymore.
and according to halachah, a person must b given nutrition and hydration at all costs, but they DO NOT haveto b put on a respirator. the reasoning is that if the person can remain alive w/o a respirator then they are not sick enough to die. however, once they are on a respirator, they may not be taken off.
SO AGAIN, I IMPLORE EACH AND EVERY ONE OF YOU TO MAKE A LIVING WILL AND HALACHIC LIVING WILL (in the latter you are naming the rabbinical authority who will b responsible for answering any halachic questions) AND MAKE SURE YOUR HUSBAND AND ADULT FAMILY MEMBERS HAVE ONE TOO. I WILL GLADLY EMAIL THE FORM TO YOU. PLEASE DONT DELAY

mp ↓

Wed, Mar 23 2005, 10:48 pm

I think this case is quite complex and raises some interesting issues. I don't really believe all the stuff on the internet about Terri or her husband or her parents because I think that by this point, the whole thing has become such a media circus that each side is telling huge lies about each other. Did she have an eating disorder or is he trying to kill her for insurance ? No one will ever know. So leaving her particular situation out of it, here are some points which I was considering :

To what extent does a person have a right to decide what the end of his or her life should be like ? I know personally that I would not want to live like she is living because of the enormous strain( financial, emotional) that this whole situation would place on the people I love. If I am a Jewish man in this situation, does my wife become an agunah ? For 15 + years ? How much would it cost to keep me alive ? Would I want my family to sell the clothes on their backs for it ? Would I want them all to keep me alive for years and years, secretly wishing that I would just die already, so they could move on ?

At the same time, if the parents want their child alive, what right do we have to prevent that ? If I had to make that sort of decision about my child, I would be furious that anyone would try to intervene. Some guy who married her gets to decide what happens to my baby ? On the other hand, that is part of marriage- your spouse takes on greater responsibility than do your parents. On the third hand, why are parents responsible for their children when they are young ? - Because they birthed them and raised them and because the children are incapable of making their own decisions ? Well what happens if those children grow up and become sick and become unable to make their own decisions - shouldn't responsibility once again revert to the parents, who brought this child into the world ? On the fourth hand, the idea of my parents making my end-of-life decisions for me makes me queasy. What happens if, hypothetically, a mentally [crazy] child grows up and marries a nonMR person ? Does that person assume responsibility for the MR individual or do the parents continue making decisions for them ? At what point do you say, well, she married him and now she has to live ( die) with the consequences ?
I guess I also don't understand what legal right congress and federal judges have to get involved with this at all ? Shouldn't the federal government stay way away from these decisions if it is just for individuals ?

It is very complicated. There are valid points to both sides.

hadasa ↓

Thu, Mar 24 2005, 12:16 am

mp - Without minimizing the tremendous financial and emotional strain on relatives and on the disabled person himself - human life is precious in and of itself and NOBODY EVER has the right to decide when this life is no longer worth living. Not the person himself, not his parents, not his spouse. There is only one guldeline as to what is ethical -the Torah.

↑ Tefila ↓

Thu, Mar 24 2005, 2:58 am

Though I do know of case which asked by reputable rabbonim one who feels they they can't continue on b/c of terminal illness etc medicine or life support is permitted under certain circumstances to be witheld but under no circumstances is it allowed to be withdrawn ever, ever, ever!!!

MP DOESN'T IT MAKE YOU REALLY WONDER THOUGH ABOUT THE HUSBAND WHO WANTS HER CREMATED, UNLESS IT'S NOT FACTUAL JUST NEWS BLOWN UP!

AND TRUTH IS THATS POSSIBLE TOO BUT W/H NAZI GERMANY THE NEWS ALSO SHOWED ATROCITYS BEING DONE AND PEOPLE IN AMERICA MADE A HUE AND CRY, SO TOO NOW IF WE MAKE A HUE AND CRY MAYBE WE CAN ALSO HAVE AFFECT? Confused

ooPS SORRY JUST REALIZED I PRESSED ACCIDENTALY CAPS LOCK OH WELL, CAN'T BE BOTHERED REWRITING Very Happy

↑ ForeverYoung ↓
Guest

Thu, Mar 24 2005, 6:27 am

Quote:

To what extent does a person have a right to decide what the end of his or her life should be like ?

only the One who gives life has the right to deside when it will end

There are situations when the 'plug' can be pulled, however, this desision can be made only with assistance of a knowledgeble Rav.

↑ Tefila ↓

Thu, Mar 24 2005, 7:15 am

Quote:

when the 'plug' can be pulled

withheld only in certain circumstances it is permissable w/h a Rav's permission.

Taking out the plug like withdrawing treatment e.g. ( taking away the feeding tube ) I think in all cases is forbidden

We should never l"a know from this, but thats why we have Rabbonim well versed in these laws!!!

Anny ↓

Thu, Mar 24 2005, 7:43 am

I know somebody who's neighbour got a psak to pull the plug on their child, lo aleinu

I think in that case the person did not fuction anymore AT ALL, on any level. The machiles were keeping the body alive, but the body did not function at all & there was no brain activity. I do not know all the details, so don't make any conclusions or ask me questions about it

The Rav spent many hours with the patient, the doctors and the family, and it took a long time for the decision to be made.

rydys

Thu, Mar 24 2005, 12:18 pm

This is a very big topic and is constantly being discussed by the gedolim and several leading doctors. The issues are very complex. Each case has to be considered individually bec. the details of each case are very different. For example, there is a huge difference in removing a breathing tube from someone who cannot breathe on their own at all or from someone who can breathe somewhat but will eventually tire out and stop. These decisions can only be made by the gedolei hador.

↑ Tefila ↓

Thu, Mar 24 2005, 1:41 pm

Quote:

For example, there is a huge difference in removing a breathing tube from someone who cannot breathe on their own at all or from someone who can breathe somewhat but will eventually tire out and stop.

Very interesting Rydys and yes only Rabbonim can make that decision!

↑ Tefila ↓

Thu, Mar 24 2005, 1:54 pm

http://www.chabad.org/magazine.....68997

There's an article you might be interested in

↑ Tefila ↓

Thu, Mar 24 2005, 1:57 pm

And read the comments under it!

↑ proudmom ↓

Thu, Mar 24 2005, 2:30 pm

I just got this from CNN

Quote:

- U.S. Supreme Court refuses to intervene in Terri Schiavo case. Lower court decision to remove feeding tube stands.

↑ ForeverYoung ↓
Guest

Thu, Mar 24 2005, 4:04 pm

this is terrible

I mamash can't believe it!!

Her husband belongs in the prison for life, as well as the judges & jurors.

Wonder if there is any hope for her...........

↑ Tefila ↓

Thu, Mar 24 2005, 5:05 pm

Question is how she doing now Sad

↑ Tefila ↓

Thu, Mar 24 2005, 5:35 pm

Just saw it on nbc. He's had many relationships incl one whom he's lived w/h for a decade. And has children w/h her. shock

But still feels he has to honor terrys wishes shock

Well she for sure didn't wish for him to be running w/h other women shock

An upside down tragic world, the biggest tradgedy is, those who are supposed to know better have turned blind or been bribed conc the truth!!!!! Exploding anger

avigayil

Thu, Mar 24 2005, 6:29 pm

I am sooo mad about all of this too.

The horrible things is Michael Shiavo didn't 'remember' his wife's wishes until after he got the money from the malpractice suit ! Exploding anger

Months later he was living with this new woman of hers.
I honestly have lost faith in judges here in the U.S.
Where are all of the women's rights groups to take up her cause?

Anyway, that is all for now. It is Purim and we are suppossed to be happy.

↑ hadasa ↓

Sat, Mar 26 2005, 10:21 am

Quote:

As far as I understand, in such a case, the Rav reached the conclusion that the person is according to Halachah no longer considered alive, NOT that he is living a life that deserves to be terminated!

And although it may be in some cases permissible to let nature run its course, as far as I know, it is never permissible to take action that will certainly hasten death.

Of course, each case has to be judged on its own by Rabbonim who are competent to make such decisions.

↑ Rivka ↓

Sat, Mar 26 2005, 12:59 pm

It is very different to take away someone tube with which they get to eat, than pulling a plug to stop their heart beating. I don't think I would believe all the stories I read on the internet I think alot of media is hyped up and is a load of rubbish, like the cremation and stuff because even if he asked for a cremation they would still need to see what caused it in the first place, probably for re-search purposes.
If the guy is with other women how is he still married to her and making decisions on her be-half.
One cannot say that this woman wants to die, alot of really ill people fight to stay alive and do all sorts of treatments to help themselves even if it causes them such pain, they still do it. We as well people cannot understand that as we are not in that situation and we should be thankful and hope we never will be.

hindyandrafi

Sat, Mar 26 2005, 5:29 pm

After reading about this and following the story.. I just keep becoming more and more outraged about this......

Even Scott Peterson, who murdered his own wife, is not being starved to death, but will probably be put to death quickly with a lethal injection, yet here lies a poor, innocent woman who is inhumanely being starved and left to dehydrate to death..

How can a country which claims to be a fair and democratic nation, allow this to happen...???????????

↑ ilvmommyhood ↓
Guest

Sat, Mar 26 2005, 5:35 pm

Quote:

I don't think I would believe all the stories I read on the internet I think alot of media is hyped up and is a load of rubbish, like the cremation and stuff because even if he asked for a cremation they would still need to see what caused it in the first place, probably for re-search purposes.

He has a court order allowing him to cremate her as soon as she dies... this way nobody can tell what really happened. It is in the public record. This is not made up! A person does not automatically get autopsied just because. Certain types of deaths (like heart attacks and such) they try to do, but you can get a court order for them not to.