ami article about poverty in israel

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Ami article about poverty in israel

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↑ Tamiri ↓

Thu, Jul 18 2013, 12:16 pm

Housing is, in my mind, THE biggest issue when living in Israel. There really aren't decent affordable options anymore. And that is one reason I would agree with people saying they are unable to live here. It takes a good chunk of earning for a middle-aged family of 6 or so to pay 5000 nis and up for housing. And it's a major, major problem. Besides the housing issue, I don't think that it's so hard to live in Israel. If you adapt to a different mind-set (what Shalhevet is saying) and lose the "I gotta shop" mentality, life can be very good. Again, only if the housing part is taken care of. Something BEH will give soon, and Israel will return to being an attractive option for Jews wishing to live here.

↑ amother ↓

Thu, Jul 18 2013, 12:19 pm

peanut2: I'm not sure where you're getting your figures from. We became Israeli halfway though my pregnancy and joined maccabi-we did not have to pay 10,000 shekels-nowhere near that. Even paying privately here before we had a kupa was not as much as we would have paid in chutz laretz.
Afaik-If you turn up to any hospital in Israel in labour-there is no charge-giving birth is free like it is in many countries.
I'm not from the US so I can't compare medical care to there, but all the medical care I have received in Israel through the kupa has been excellent-and I really don't think health insurance here is high considering that you generally receive good quality medical care (amongst the best in the world), anyways, that's my experience.

Liba ↓

Thu, Jul 18 2013, 12:30 pm

FWIW I have surgery coming up. I could have had my surgeon doing the surgery with the possibility of an intern (doctor but still an underling) being involved and my surgeon watching over for part of it, and it would have been free. I chose to pay the 2,900nis for my doctor to be my private doctor with only his hands on my neck.

In the US I wouldn't have had the second option. In teaching hospitals you don't usually get a choice at all or even told that anyone except your surgeon will be in there.

B"H I do have insurance to cover the 2,900nis, but even if I didn't I am just glad I have the choice.

chani8

Thu, Jul 18 2013, 12:38 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

amother wrote:

israel is extremely expensive! I'm not comparing it the states, I have no idea what it's like there, but first off, food here is an absolute fortune! tuna is now 8 shekel, a can of regular starkist tuna in water. gas is ridiculous. absolutely utterly ridiculous. in terms of bills. we pay through the roof for water, electricity and gas. arnona which is land tax is also very expensive. can be over 10,000 shekel a year. if you make over a certain amount, you get no discount. we pay over 400 shekel a month in health insurance. a family of 6. we pay for shools for the girls, not a ton, 100 shekel a month per child, and 500 shekel a month for boys cheder per child. everyone that I speak to with over 3 children needs a minimum of 15000 shekel a month to live here. food, bills, schools, insurances, car, gas, rent/mortgage. I'm going anon because we have some flaming fanatics here who don't like to say it like it is, the real truth about israel and how expensive it is. most people don't live on tiny yeshuvim clipping coupons.

Sorry to nit pick but if you are buying tuna for 8 shekels, you are shopping in the wrong stores. Even my makolet, which I know is more expensive than the supermarket near me, is not 8 shekels. I have never seen tuna for such a price. Where is this?

This sounds like RBS prices.

September June ↓

Thu, Jul 18 2013, 12:45 pm

Is 8 shekel around $2?

A can of Starkist tuna is $1.79 here in the US. Not that much of a price difference.

Food prices in the US have skyrocketed in the past few years.

↑ Tamiri ↓

Thu, Jul 18 2013, 12:46 pm

So, instead of tuna being a daily food, it's more of a once-in-a-while thing. Last month, on sale, I paid 20 nis for a 4-pack of tuna in water. A CHAREIDI/CHASSIDISH friend of mine says she never pays more than that at Yesh.

↑ shabbatiscoming ↓

Thu, Jul 18 2013, 12:46 pm

September June wrote:

Is 8 shekel around $2?

A can of Starkist tuna is $1.79 here in the US. Not that much of a price difference.

Food prices in the US have skyrocketed in the past few years.

But again, you can not compare a shekel price to a dolloar price, it just does not compare. And no, tuna is not usually that price. I pay around 6 shekels.

↑ Liba ↓

Thu, Jul 18 2013, 12:48 pm

Tamiri wrote:

I think that was me.

Very Happy

We only eat tuna on Shabbos though. It is full of mercury and not good for anyone to eat too often. Once a week at shalosh seudos is enough for any of us.

↑ Liba ↓

Thu, Jul 18 2013, 12:53 pm

FWIW we used to pay well over $2 a can, and drive from Massachusetts to New York buy it, because we didn't use Starkist in the US. We only eat tuna with a mashgiach tamidi. We pay much much less here than we did in the US for tuna with the same level of hashgahca.

↑ September June

Thu, Jul 18 2013, 12:54 pm

Liba wrote:

Liba, I imagine CY products are way cheaper in Israel than in the US as well.

↑ Tamiri ↓

Thu, Jul 18 2013, 12:58 pm

September June wrote:

Liba wrote:

Liba, I imagine CY products are way cheaper in Israel than in the US as well.

Milk is expensive here. Veryl And so is yogurt and cottage cheese and yellow cheese. OTOH, Ben and Jerry's is reasonable if you buy it on sale. AND they have chalav Yisrael flavors!

↑ Liba ↓

Thu, Jul 18 2013, 12:59 pm

September June wrote:

Liba wrote:

Liba, I imagine CY products are way cheaper in Israel than in the US as well.

Yoghurt, pudding (we never bought it in the US), ice cream and chummos are all cheaper.

Cholov yisroel Ben and Jerry's used to cost us $1,260 for a pint. Now we get it it for 20nis ($5.50) or less.

chanchy123 ↓

Thu, Jul 18 2013, 1:01 pm

just checked my cabinet. 4 pack of starkist tuna for 26.75 which equals 6.68 nis each. Of course, this is an imported product there are cheaper brands.

↑ Peanut2 ↓

Thu, Jul 18 2013, 1:02 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Peanut2 wrote:

If we were to move to Israel now we'd have to pay dental out of pocket from what I can tell. From what I can tell any psychological services we wanted would be out of pocket. And if I wanted to know who would be cutting me up and sewing me (because I will probably need to have a CS, though I'd like to try for a VBAC first) I'd have to pay over 10,000 shekels. With the less good insurance I had in America it would be about the same, maybe even more. But with my awesome insurance it would cost much less to give birth in America than go private in Israel. And because I am already an Israeli citizen if I showed up pregnant in israel and wanted to get on the socialized medicine ASAP I'd also have to pay 10,000.

Basically, it's really difficult to generalize accurately. Sometimes there are real financial differences that can affect where you can live, but mostly where you live is a combination of factors.

For us, the cost of giving birth in Israel seems a bit overwhelming, but the real scar factor is the cost of housing. Everything else is more about lifestyle and various differences.

Dental: Now on many kuppot, covered.
Psychologists: there ae many covered by the kupot. Who told you otherwise?
Surgery: It really depends. I just had surgery and did not pay a cent. I had to have a small surgery three years ago and paid 2000 shekels instead of 15000. It depends on your coverage.
Birth: Not really understanding what costs you are talking about.

Housing: I agree with you, but if you like where you live and there is nothign to buy in your price range, then renting is what you do (that is what we do, we would not move countries because of the cost of housing, its just part of living here)

Dental - when I lived in Israel it was not covered. If that has changed that's great.

Psychologist - when I lived there only acute mental health services were covered. I don't think that has changed. It's a fluid definition.

For both psychologists and dental: can you pick your own doctor like in America? For a psychologist I'm pretty sure covered would be in briut hanefesh or something similar, nothing "private." Again, with good insurance in America I can pick anyone in-network for almost nothing, and out of network for 40% of cost or something like that. For primary care within a kupa you get lots of choice, but for dentists or psychologists I'm not so sure.

The whole surgery/birth thing, just to explain: I would likely need only c-section. I'd like to have v-bac as an option but would like to me my OB because it will likely be surgery. Doing so in Israel is incredibly expensive. If I am wrong about that feel free to correct me.

I am already an Israeli citizen, and National Insurance requires me to wait 6 months before I can be on a kupa again after moving back to israel, or pay 10,000. I cannot become a citizen since I already am one. For me, this is an additional expense. This is obviously not an expense for most people, but that doesn't change it.

The comparison of health costs really depends on lots. Generally Israel is cheaper IMO. If you are having a normal v@ginal birth then Israel is for sure cheaper (unless you have gov't paid medicaid in America, but that's not comparing middle class to middle class.)

The point is that all these things really depend. Except for housing, which is scary.

↑ Liba ↓

Thu, Jul 18 2013, 1:09 pm

Yes, you can pick your dentist from one of the many dentists who work with each kupah/insurance.

I know that the clinic my doctor works in has a psychiatrist working there once a week. I never checked into what he does, but he is there and in the kupah office, so obviously covered.

My family member with bi-polar disorder has no trouble getting mental health services covered. She had more trouble in the US before she made aliya.

Fox ↓

Thu, Jul 18 2013, 1:11 pm

So can we agree, when all the anecdotes are collected and the price of tuna analyzed, that making ends meet is a struggle for most people?

Certain types of expenses seem easier to manage for various reasons in EY; others are easier to manage in the U.S. It goes back to the old saying, "The only people who don't have problems are people you don't know very well."

I've met a lot of people, including secular Israelis, people who made aliyah many years ago, as well as people from all over the world, who have images of U.S. financial prosperity that are probably 20-30 years out of date. However, any of them who actually live in the U.S. for an extended period of time rapidly discover that there's no such thing as a free lunch. For everything that is cheaper or easier, there is something more expensive and difficult.

It's interesting to me to observe the cultural assumptions we all bring to the table. For historical and cultural reasons, Americans will open their wallets generously to all kinds of charities. At the same time, they go nuts if they think a single undeserving welfare cheat is buying a bag of chips with their hard-earned tax money. We consider private charities to be part of the "safety net" in a way that is somewhat unique in industrialized countries."

In Europe, in general, it's the reverse: people don't get quite as irate over taxes, but they expect their governments to provide more services.

Israel, in my observation, seems to vacillate between the two approaches depending on flukes of history and culture. When my DH broke his ankle on the plane to EY, his entire treatment at the hospital nearest the airport came to a whopping $200. But crutches had to be obtained from Yad Sarah, and since the volunteer wasn't in that day, he had no crutches until she came back.

Neither system is better or worse, and I suspect that neither system actually costs that much more or less in the long run. However, if you only look at one small part of a country's system, you often come away with erroneous impressions about them -- and about yourself.

↑ Liba ↓

Thu, Jul 18 2013, 1:14 pm

FWIW If you are an Israeli and pay you bituach leumi (as you should) while you are out of the country, there is no need to pay the 10,000nis fine. That is only for people who were out of the country for more than two years without paying bituach leumi.

↑ Liba ↓

Thu, Jul 18 2013, 2:03 pm

Quote:

Receiving Benefits Retroactively:
Benefits may be received retroactively, up to 15 months (one year and three months) after receiving Toshav Chozer status from Misrad Haklita.

If you have 4 children and get kitzvah yeladim retroactively for 15 months you would get 14,460nis.

↑ Peanut2 ↓

Thu, Jul 18 2013, 3:43 pm

Liba wrote:

Actually... anyone who is out of the country for five years or more is no longer a resident and cannot be covered by bituach leumi and will have to pay the 10,000 fine.

Also, if you are out of the country and no longer a resident (which may require filling out a form at BL) you do not need to pay BL. I paid for a short while after I left when I still thought I was coming back.

But you are right, that so long as you are still considered a resident you are required to pay BL and will be able to get services.

↑ Peanut2 ↓

Thu, Jul 18 2013, 3:45 pm

Fox wrote:

I agree. I also think that it really depends on the person's specific circumstances.

Anyway, all this nitty gritty isn't a reason to make aliyah or not make aliyah. I'm not moving countries for the price of tune.

The housing costs are a major impediment.

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