ami article about poverty in israel

sourstix ↓

Thu, Jul 18 2013, 10:46 am

amother wrote:

I will be the voice of dissent here. I was a kallah who donated $1500 to Yad Eliezer for another wedding to be made on the day of my wedding, and after reading the Ami article I was fuming that I donated my hard-earned money. Let me tell you why:

The U.S. 'safety net' does not apply to everyone - I work hard and pay taxes and try not to take money from the government if I don't have to. I'm very far from rich, or even comfortably paying my bills.

Health insurance is only for children and pregnant women, you have to be really poor for the whole family to be eligible. 150 shekel=$42. I pay approximately 8 times that for each my husband and myself.

Fertility treatments in Israel are practically free. I paid $14,000 - $16,000 to conceive my child, with some assistance from Bonei Olam.

I do receive WIC.

I am not eligible for housing assistance; I rent and am hoping that in a few years we will be able to save up for a house. Most Israelis that I know of receive apartments from their parents when they get married.

Tuition - I'm chassidish, it's not free, and I pay the discounted rate of approximately $300/month per child. How much do you pay again in Israel? Oh right, nothing.

I could go on and on. The interviewee in the article said that there is so much poverty in Israel because many of the programs are tied into employment. I have news for you: they're not giving out money for free in the U.S. either. If we have money it's because we work hard to earn it. Actually, Israel is the socialist country where so much is given for free.

I sincerely hope that my hard-earned money went to someone who really needed it, but I am fuming at the thought that it might have gone to someone who doesn’t have money simply because they don’t want to work.

I remember an Israeli meshulach once came to my parents’ house and told my mother he needs money to buy an apartment for the kid he was marrying off. My mother answered, “I’m 44 and I still rent. I’d like to buy an apartment, too.”

anon because I don’t want people who know me to know about the infertility.

this is so true I have family in israel and some of them come here to collect when they marry off. their attitude is I have come to pick up my money. how come you dont give it to me? they feel entitled. now I am not saying its everyone. but I would never have that attitude if I was asking someone to help me. israelis think the young couples here have so much. we dont have houses that our patents buy us. so we automatically pay rent. thats one thing starting off with more expenses. and the dollar is pretty much the same at this point so why do you israelis think we have more? can I tell you how many times I thought about every item I was buying in the grocery before shabbis cause I just didnt have. and I had to rely on fs? cause I dont know what I would do otherwise? dh learnded in ey' all the isrealis didnt believe himwhen his father doesnt have a car. they thought he was lying. what in heavens name do you pp think? if dh doesnt have money because no job. I take used clothing and take whatever pp give me. I dont go around from house to house for money. bec that you do when someone is very sick not if you have to healthy feat to take you to a job. and beleive me dh isnt picky. wears blue clothes like any plumber. and no no white shirt like they all come with their dressed up suits. dh didnt buy a suit in 8yrs of marriage. huh? yes your reading right. I could go on and on. so dont think were better off. its a myth.

↑ sourstix

Thu, Jul 18 2013, 10:50 am

self-actualization wrote:

Don't fume about having given tzedakah.

The mitzvah of maaser is on the giver (and is unrelated to the receiver). One of the basic "reasons" behind the mitzvah is that you then recognize that the money is not yours, really it's all Hashem's and you are but a conduit. The same G-d that gave you $16,000 to spend on fertility treatments also gave the $1500 to Yad Eliezer ... I work hard and so does my husband but at the end of the day we all just need to realize that we are dependent on the Almighty L-rd ...

excuse me. how would you feel if you were the one giving. would yhou say the same? dont be holier then thou on someone elses cheshbon. and especially when you know that they are spending money like water. I know cause I have donated and seen what they have done with it. its disgusting. and downright so not right. then I will think twice before I give to that person. will give it to a more needy case. that I know will use it properly.

↑ amother ↓

Thu, Jul 18 2013, 10:54 am

amother wrote:

How did you do this?

↑ shabbatiscoming ↓

Thu, Jul 18 2013, 10:58 am

amother wrote:

israel is extremely expensive! I'm not comparing it the states, I have no idea what it's like there, but first off, food here is an absolute fortune! tuna is now 8 shekel, a can of regular starkist tuna in water. gas is ridiculous. absolutely utterly ridiculous. in terms of bills. we pay through the roof for water, electricity and gas. arnona which is land tax is also very expensive. can be over 10,000 shekel a year. if you make over a certain amount, you get no discount. we pay over 400 shekel a month in health insurance. a family of 6. we pay for shools for the girls, not a ton, 100 shekel a month per child, and 500 shekel a month for boys cheder per child. everyone that I speak to with over 3 children needs a minimum of 15000 shekel a month to live here. food, bills, schools, insurances, car, gas, rent/mortgage. I'm going anon because we have some flaming fanatics here who don't like to say it like it is, the real truth about israel and how expensive it is. most people don't live on tiny yeshuvim clipping coupons.

Sorry to nit pick but if you are buying tuna for 8 shekels, you are shopping in the wrong stores. Even my makolet, which I know is more expensive than the supermarket near me, is not 8 shekels. I have never seen tuna for such a price. Where is this?

↑ shabbatiscoming ↓

Thu, Jul 18 2013, 11:03 am

amother wrote:

How did you do this?

I am not this amother, but what do you mean how did she do this? I imagine she is NOT in israel, but in the states where you pay through the roof for IF treatments.

But I just want to clear this up. Everyone write that fertility treatments in Israel are practically free and I am going to disagree. It really depends. I did a cycle last year with injections and a high dosage. It came close to 2000 shekels in a month. That is a BIG amount of our take home salary. So, its not nearly free, just a lot less than 14k.

↑ Tamiri ↓

Thu, Jul 18 2013, 11:13 am

Only very primitive or self-serving Ultra Orthodox Israelis still believe that life is so much better in the U.S. Educated ones realize how wonderful life can be in Israel, for Israelis and how hard life can be for Americans, in the U.S. Some Israeli people are behind the times and don't realize that Americans WORK for the money, and that they should, too.
There are, of course, major pricing differences in many areas, so that in Israel the shopping needs to be toned down. But that's no big deal. Shopping is a past-time in the U.S. People want it like that here as well, and it costs!
I think it's appalling that Israelis (let's face it: Ultra Orthodox) come shnorring for money for apartments. I laughed them out of my house every time they knocked on my door in the U.S. It's major chutzpa and idiocy for anyone to give money for an apartment for a young couple.

↑ amother ↓

Thu, Jul 18 2013, 11:21 am

Tamiri wrote:

And I do that here, in Israel, when I have such shnorrers coming to my DL community.

↑ amother ↓

Thu, Jul 18 2013, 11:29 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

amother wrote:

How did you do this?

I am the original amother. How I paid, how it came out to so much money, what's the question? It was very expensive because in the U.S. we actually pay for things ourselves. I paid by taking money out of savings, getting a loan from Bonei Olam, and we are currently working on scraping together the money to repay our loans every month.

shabbatiscoming, 2000 shekels comes out to approximately $540. Not to minimize it, but compared to what I had to pay that is pennies. My number of $16000 does not include the cost of insurance, which was approximately $400/month for me alone.

↑ amother ↓

Thu, Jul 18 2013, 11:31 am

amother wrote:

Tamiri wrote:

And I do that here, in Israel, when I have such shnorrers coming to my DL community.

My point was not to make this a bashing of the Ultra Orthodox, so please let's not make it that. I am in fact Ultra Orthodox. It was the whole mentality of the article that really irked me.

↑ shabbatiscoming ↓

Thu, Jul 18 2013, 11:38 am

amother wrote:

shabbatiscoming wrote:

amother wrote:

How did you do this?

I realize that, BUT you are comparing dollars with shekel amounts. Thats not fair. If you made 7k shekels a month and had to use 2 thousand of them for medication, thats a lot. Thats all I was saying. It is far from free, thats all.
Does that make more sense? You can not compare or convert shekel amounts to dollars. It will not make sense at all.
I was not making light of the costs of IF treatments outside of israel at all, I was just showing that it is not near free either. We are making shekels and paying shekels (and the amount that I stated was already on the medical basic discount)

↑ m in Israel

Thu, Jul 18 2013, 11:40 am

Tamiri wrote:

I'm sorry, this post is super condescending and just weird. As a relatively recent Olah, I think it is fair for me to have an opinion on differences in finances between the U.S. and Israel, and for many people it is a lot more expensive to live here. It has nothing to do with working or not working for a living -- it has to do with how much things cost and what salaries are. We did not receive government money or tzedakah in the U.S., nor do we receive it here (except for non-income based tax credits/ kitvat yeladim type of things). Our expenses are definitely more here. We never owned a home, but our rent here is much more than it was in the U.S., and as renters in the U.S. the property taxes were the responsibility of the owner. Utilities (electricity, water, gas, phone, etc.) cost us much more here. Toiletries, household items (everything from toilet paper to lightbulbs) cost us more here. Now I know there are places in the U.S. where these things are just as expensive. But we were always very responsible shoppers, and you just don't have the "Walmart option" here for the most part. We are also one of the exceptions in that health care is much more expensive for us here. I had great health coverage as part of my salary in the U.S., so our out of pocket costs were very minimal. There are a few members of my family who need maintance drugs for different conditions, and even with the insurance discount (we have the upgraded insurance), we pay over $100 (not shekel!) a month on drugs, while in the U.S. we payed about $10 a month for the same thing.

If you want to make it about Ultra-Orthodox vs. Modern Orthodox, I can say that maybe you think things are cheaper here because you are comparing tuition costs to MO school in the U.S. which can be double the more "yeshivish" schools! But I don't think that is the point here.

I agree with you that people can certainly be very happy here -- we have no regrets about the move. But we knew before we came that we were giving up some of our financial security in order to make the move. You say in your own post that there are major price differences here -- "but that's no big deal". I'm glad it's not a big deal to you -- but saying the fact isn't important doesn't mean the fact doesn't exist.

It is also a fact that a poor person in the U.S. (poor for whatever reason, whether a junkie, Kollel family, or family that just lost their job) does not need to worry about life's basic necessities such as food and clothing the way someone in Israel does, despite the socialistic structure of the government here, and the abnormally high taxes (both income and consumption taxes!).

↑ amother ↓

Thu, Jul 18 2013, 11:45 am

How did you do this?[/quote]I am not this amother, but what do you mean how did she do this? I imagine she is NOT in israel, but in the states where you pay through the roof for IF treatments.

But I just want to clear this up. Everyone write that fertility treatments in Israel are practically free and I am going to disagree. It really depends. I did a cycle last year with injections and a high dosage. It came close to 2000 shekels in a month. That is a BIG amount of our take home salary. So, its not nearly free, just a lot less than 14k.[/quote]

I am the original amother. How I paid, how it came out to so much money, what's the question? It was very expensive because in the U.S. we actually pay for things ourselves. I paid by taking money out of savings, getting a loan from Bonei Olam, and we are currently working on scraping together the money to repay our loans every month.

shabbatiscoming, 2000 shekels comes out to approximately $540. Not to minimize it, but compared to what I had to pay that is pennies. My number of $16000 does not include the cost of insurance, which was approximately $400/month for me alone.[/quote]I realize that, BUT you are comparing dollars with shekel amounts. Thats not fair. If you made 7k shekels a month and had to use 2 thousand of them for medication, thats a lot. Thats all I was saying. It is far from free, thats all.
Does that make more sense? You can not compare or convert shekel amounts to dollars. It will not make sense at all.
I was not making light of the costs of IF treatments outside of israel at all, I was just showing that it is not near free either. We are making shekels and paying shekels (and the amount that I stated was already on the medical basic discount)[/quote]

You're right, and that is why I inserted that I'm not trying to minimize what you paid. This was just one part of my overall point.

↑ Tamiri ↓

Thu, Jul 18 2013, 11:56 am

m in Israel wrote:

Tamiri wrote:

I've lived in Israel since 1973, with a 16 year hiatus in the U.S. I know both sides. I stand behind what I wrote. And we have far more financial security here in Israel, even without owning a home here, which we did in the U.S. A couple of times. Day-to-day security. I can't explain it but it is what it is. Nothing to do with MO or Chareidi. However, the major difference is that you won't find a MO paper whining like an Ami article. An MO article will complain about the price of apartments and the inability to afford a place of your own. Shnorring would not be touted as an option. Getting better educated, higher qualifications and (yes, sorry) limiting family size probably WOULD be on the agenda. My point is that the article depicts a narrow view of a narrow segment of society here. And yeah, after 40 years here, I think I can say this type of stuff. Sorry if you don't agree.

Peanut2 ↓

Thu, Jul 18 2013, 12:02 pm

Just re how much easier it is in Israel and people don't work and it's all socialized and the apartments:

One of the major reasons we may end up in America and not in israel is the cost of housing. Since we are not Israeli and charedi no one bought us an apartment. The cost of housing in Israel is insane and the required down payment in Israel is 40%. Areas that once were a million shekels are now much more, and the dollar has gone way down, and we cannot afford anything. We also have no way of coming up with about half the cost of an apartment. So DH and I may not be able to move to Israel if we want to ever buy.

The health insurance thing really depends. If you rely on medicaid for pregnancy and your kids then America is in many ways much cheaper. Same if you have good inexpensive health insurance in America. Yes, health care is through the roof in America, but Israel is not free either. In American if really depends on what kind of insurance you have. In Israel the basics are covered for everyone, which I believe in and wish it was like that in the US.

But for us, in the US, we have covered dental within our insurance package right now, and psychological services included at a very low rate, and what in Israel would be considered a "private doctor" for pregnancy and birth.

If we were to move to Israel now we'd have to pay dental out of pocket from what I can tell. From what I can tell any psychological services we wanted would be out of pocket. And if I wanted to know who would be cutting me up and sewing me (because I will probably need to have a CS, though I'd like to try for a VBAC first) I'd have to pay over 10,000 shekels. With the less good insurance I had in America it would be about the same, maybe even more. But with my awesome insurance it would cost much less to give birth in America than go private in Israel. And because I am already an Israeli citizen if I showed up pregnant in israel and wanted to get on the socialized medicine ASAP I'd also have to pay 10,000.

Basically, it's really difficult to generalize accurately. Sometimes there are real financial differences that can affect where you can live, but mostly where you live is a combination of factors.

For us, the cost of giving birth in Israel seems a bit overwhelming, but the real scar factor is the cost of housing. Everything else is more about lifestyle and various differences.

shalhevet ↓

Thu, Jul 18 2013, 12:09 pm

amother wrote:

I wouldn't worry if I were you. Yad Eliezer makes very simple weddings, and anyone who is trying to live it up a little doesn't want that kind of wedding. I can't believe people use them unless they genuinely need to. IMHO it is a very big mitzva.

Quote:

The U.S. 'safety net' does not apply to everyone - I work hard and pay taxes and try not to take money from the government if I don't have to. I'm very far from rich, or even comfortably paying my bills.

Health insurance is only for children and pregnant women, you have to be really poor for the whole family to be eligible. 150 shekel=$42. I pay approximately 8 times that for each my husband and myself.

It is pretty silly IMHO to compare prices in America and Israel. The real way to compare prices is in line with salaries. You need to calculate how long it takes an average wage earner to earn the amount needed for a particular item in each country. So maybe health insurance is cheaper, but clothes, many types of food etc. are much more expensive (even if they cost the same).

Quote:

Fertility treatments in Israel are practically free. I paid $14,000 - $16,000 to conceive my child, with some assistance from Bonei Olam.

Firstly most people do not need fertility treatments, so again, it's not a good example.
The difference is due to different mentalities - Israel considers having a child a basic right, not a luxury, and so it is considered a medical necessity.

What people also don't seem to grasp is how much copays cost in Israel.
Say you have two relatively minor things in the same family one summer. Let's say one child breaks a bone and another has recurring ear infections. You have to pay a relatively small copay for each of: orthopedic doctor, X-rays, physiotherapy, ENT, hospital outpatients. If this happens in June, you will have to pay them all again in July because it's a new quarter. You will have copays for all the prescriptions. You will have to take taxis or pay for gas to doctors/ hospitals. Probably one or both parents will have to take time off work.

If I tell you the sums involved, you will probably dismiss them - but they quickly add up. And for a family that was previously just scraping by, this can push them over the financial edge. And that's for something relatively minor - imagine, ch"v, much more serious health problems. And all this while the actual treatment is paid for by the government.

Quote:

I do receive WIC.

I am not eligible for housing assistance; I rent and am hoping that in a few years we will be able to save up for a house. Most Israelis that I know of receive apartments from their parents when they get married.

Rental prices in Israel are high. So high that even in a small city/ town they can be an entire low or medium salary. If someone doesn't own a home here they are practically doomed to a life of struggling. It is not like in the US or UK when you can save up yourself for a house. If you start renting, unless you are a corporate director or something you will spend so much on renting that you will not be able to save anything (unless you live in the absolute boonies where there are no jobs either). Most Israelis today receive an apartment with a mortgage - and that is probably still more than the rent you are paying (in real terms as a % of your salary).

Quote:

Tuition - I'm chassidish, it's not free, and I pay the discounted rate of approximately $300/month per child. How much do you pay again in Israel? Oh right, nothing.

Ha ha. I pay for my sons in cheder. I pay for my daughters in BY HS (a few thousand shekels a year). I pay for my son in yeshiva. And I pay an enormous sum for my dd in BY post-high school. It is only (almost) free for girls in BY elementary or all children in DL elementary. DL who want a good HS option also pay large sums.

Quote:

I could go on and on. The interviewee in the article said that there is so much poverty in Israel because many of the programs are tied into employment. I have news for you: they're not giving out money for free in the U.S. either. If we have money it's because we work hard to earn it. Actually, Israel is the socialist country where so much is given for free.

Could you give me an example, please? I would like to get these freebies too.

↑ shabbatiscoming ↓

Thu, Jul 18 2013, 12:09 pm

Peanut2 wrote:

If we were to move to Israel now we'd have to pay dental out of pocket from what I can tell. From what I can tell any psychological services we wanted would be out of pocket. And if I wanted to know who would be cutting me up and sewing me (because I will probably need to have a CS, though I'd like to try for a VBAC first) I'd have to pay over 10,000 shekels. With the less good insurance I had in America it would be about the same, maybe even more. But with my awesome insurance it would cost much less to give birth in America than go private in Israel. And because I am already an Israeli citizen if I showed up pregnant in israel and wanted to get on the socialized medicine ASAP I'd also have to pay 10,000.

Basically, it's really difficult to generalize accurately. Sometimes there are real financial differences that can affect where you can live, but mostly where you live is a combination of factors.

For us, the cost of giving birth in Israel seems a bit overwhelming, but the real scar factor is the cost of housing. Everything else is more about lifestyle and various differences.

Dental: Now on many kuppot, covered.
Psychologists: there ae many covered by the kupot. Who told you otherwise?
Surgery: It really depends. I just had surgery and did not pay a cent. I had to have a small surgery three years ago and paid 2000 shekels instead of 15000. It depends on your coverage.
Birth: Not really understanding what costs you are talking about.

Housing: I agree with you, but if you like where you live and there is nothign to buy in your price range, then renting is what you do (that is what we do, we would not move countries because of the cost of housing, its just part of living here)