Mashiach and Eliyahu Hanavi

↑ chocolate fondue ↓

Wed, Jun 26 2013, 5:21 pm

Potato Kugel wrote:

Cf
The only issue I have in your otherwise great posts is echoing FS line that this is a Chareidi vs. MO dividing line.
It is not.
It was not.
It will never be.
It is an Orthodox dividing line.
All the sources.
That is all of them, period.
State that belief in Moshiach is a fundemental part of Judaisim. As the Aruch HaShulchan writes "From the foundations of our beliefs".
There is already plenty to divide us.
We don't have to take one of the things that ultimatley unites us and turn it into a political divisive issue.
It is not one, it should not be one, and one lone self proclaimed MO poster on a website does not have the right to attempt to re-define the Judaic belief system without one single source to back her up.
And that is regardless of how many times she attempts to put down other posters to cover up the fact that she does not have a leg to stand on intellectually.
And BTW, Sorry if I seem a drop over heatred but I am "Yeshivish" yet I have relatives that are Lubavitch, that are MO (real MO not self proclaimed MO, that are Satmar, and I have friends (close friends btw) that are Sefardic.
We all get along, we go to each others simchas, we help each other out, we share in the ups and downs of each others lives.
Do we have issues that divide us?
Sure.
We each have our own Mesorah that tells us different things.
But ultimatley we are united in that we all hold by the same Fundamentals of Judaisim.
We may have what divides us, but we have even more that unites us.
So when someone comes and tries to take the very fundemental points that draw us all together that provide a line of understanding that is unique to us as a whole.
Yeah it heats me up.

I'm not 100% sure what offended you, but I sincerely apologize. I didn't mean to emphasise any dividing lines. I don't know any MO personally and I was truly bewildered to learn the apparent differences in our basic beliefs. I really don't like bashing ppl either. I'm glad to hear that this one person's opinion is not a general held 'fact'.
*sigh* I'll sleep better tonight now. Wink

↑ questioner ↓

Wed, Jun 26 2013, 7:15 pm

busydev wrote:

questioner wrote:

Anything of substance that I would be able to contribute was already said.
However, it is amusing to watch several charedi posters provide countless textual sources and citations for their position, while the MO viewpoint basically boils down to the equivalent of "daas Torah" said something and must be deferred to without explanation.

thats not fair to other MO posters.

lets rewrite (its been happening alot lately):

Quote:

However, it is amusing to watch several charedi posters provide countless textual sources and citations for their position, whileone self labeled MO poster's viewpoint basically boils down to the equivalent of "daas Torah" said something and must be deferred to without explanation.

and I totally agree, questioner.

Granted, and I apologize. In being careful not to be too harsh on a specific poster, I inadvertently insulted MO as a whole. The vast majority of MO are not saying anything of the sort.

↑ questioner

Wed, Jun 26 2013, 7:23 pm

chani8 wrote:

yogabird wrote:

I would think that in order to author a book on a complex topic one would need a basis a bit more substantial than "it doesn't say anywhere that to hold this way is usser."

I've not read the book, have you? And just because you don't like how FS is giving it over, why would you assume that prof. kellner's book is not based on something "a bit more substantial"?

I haven't, and why on earth is FS is only giving out its name over PM??

However, charedi posters have given sources and citations for each point. Countering those facts by saying "well Rabbi Dr. Prof. Kellner says this, so how can you argue with him", sounds like invoking da'as torah!
If she would post that Prof. Kellner brings a Ra'avad / Kesef Mishna / Ramban / Ibn Ezra etc. etc. that says XYZ, it would be a valid eilu v'eilu. But she doesn't even post details of what Prof. Kellner himself says to know if it has any substance.

↑ PinkFridge ↓

Wed, Jun 26 2013, 10:14 pm

yogabird wrote:

PinkFridge wrote:

yogabird wrote:

I would think that in order to author a book on a complex topic one would need a basis a bit more substantial than "it doesn't say anywhere that to hold this way is usser."

I just wonder why it's so hard to hold in what I've thought are more normative ways.

you seem to be holding it in just fine, cuz you haven't revealed much in that post Wink

I'm finding it a little...vague?

More normative ways of doing what?

Oops. "in" shouldn't have been there. I meant that for some reason there is something difficult about holding the ways we think are normative. And I wonder why? Archaeological or other historical teachings? Etc. Not sure if I'm clearer but dc needs the computer.

Actually I see why I wrote "in" but it makes things a bit clumsy.

↑ freidasima ↓

Thu, Jun 27 2013, 3:08 am

As you can see all the other MO posters were long out of here, and for good reason as they long realized that they are bashing their heads against the proverbial wall with you. And now, so am I as I see you are all too lazy to actually go and READ the book I sent you to, Rabbi Prof. Kellner.

You have no idea whatsoever how many MOs on this thread hold this way or the other way because they refuse to engage with you charedi posters and be villified unless they spout the words you want them to, the way you want them to. Thank G-d for the existence of an MO section on Imamother.

After you have read it, maybe we will have what to discuss. Right now you are just spouting ignorance about his book, the sources he brings, and his beliefs because YOU HAVE NOT READ THE BOOK.

No one is going to do that work for you and give you a readers digest summary in 3 paragraphs of a very serious book. Go and read it yourself and then come back and debate. Until then I too am no longer interested in engaging with you on a topic of which you show nothing but ignorance about a particular book by an orthodox rabbi and professor that you continue to villify, speculate about and make comments about but REFUSE TO READ IN FULL.

↑ yogabird ↓

Thu, Jun 27 2013, 3:11 am

PinkFridge wrote:

yogabird wrote:

PinkFridge wrote:

yogabird wrote:

I would think that in order to author a book on a complex topic one would need a basis a bit more substantial than "it doesn't say anywhere that to hold this way is usser."

I just wonder why it's so hard to hold in what I've thought are more normative ways.

you seem to be holding it in just fine, cuz you haven't revealed much in that post Wink

I'm finding it a little...vague?

More normative ways of doing what?

Still not sure what you mean.

It sounds like you're saying that maybe there are historical or archaeological teachings that make it very difficult to maintain the opinions on yimos hamoshiach that you held as normative until now.

Is this what you are trying to say???

I am sure Rabbi Kellner has a well thought out thesis in his book, and certainly there are a good deal of unresolved questions surrounding the topic that prompted his studying it, and I'm sure he has all the facts and sources to back it all up.

Only we haven't even been privy to a sliver of it yet, so I have no way of knowing...

↑ Potato Kugel ↓

Thu, Jun 27 2013, 3:17 am

And so it goes.
Kellners book somehow contains something that is different then what every Rabbi actually wrote explictly.
Somehow we misunderstood D. David BErger when he writes that Kellner "misinterpets" and is unworkable.
Somehow learning the Rambam the Shutim, all the Machshova Seforim are wrong.
Unless one reads Kellners book one is simply unknowledgeable.
Thats the one that matters.
Pathetic.
FS has no ansewers all the Posters here have simply proven that Fs cannot and will not engage in a simple intellectual debate.
FS cannot engage the actual sources or explain away the fact that they state clearly and unmistakebly that what she says is possible of a good jew is heretical.
And still Not one single itty bitty source that says what she says.

↑ freidasima ↓

Thu, Jun 27 2013, 3:27 am

Potato Kugel yell it louder and maybe it will succeed in covering up the fact that you are TOO LAZY to go to the library, check out the book and actually read it and you are SO LAZY that you want someone to just summarize it for you here on Imamother and prefer to villify instead of picking up your torso and actually GOING TO THE LIBRARY, checking out of the book, taking it home and actually READING IT!!!

All your villifying doesn't change the truth about your laziness.

LAZY LAZY LAZY!!!

↑ chocolate fondue ↓

Thu, Jun 27 2013, 3:36 am

Potato Kugel wrote:

Potato Kugel, leave it. We proved our point.
Just to make it clear, wherever I brought quotes, I typed them out myself, I did not google them. (Except the list from Tanach which should have been ten times longer and Rambam's Hilchos Melochim).

I just want to thank whoever started this thread. I really learnt a lot over the last couple of days. I am now in the middle of learning the Lubavitcher Rebbe's explanations on the Rambam, which I never learnt properly before. The Rebbe leaves no stone unturned and really clarifies exactly what the Rambam means and why he holds the way he does.

Even from the Rambam's first Halocha of Hilchos Melachim Chapter 12 first paragraph, you can see that although he quotes Shmuel, and states the the posuk from the tanach that the wolf will dwell with the lamb is allergorical, he still makes it clear that this just means that the nature of the world will not change. I.e. animals will not change their teva etc. Instead he shows that it means that nations of the world will stop fighting, stealing and otherwise inapppropriately.

By the way, the Rebbe says that just LEARNING about Moshiach brings yemos hamoshiach closer.

↑ Potato Kugel ↓

Thu, Jun 27 2013, 3:43 am

CF.
I hear you.
I just want to state that I have never asked for a summary of Prof Kellners book, it's easy enough to get that on Amazon (where his book is called controversial, misinterpets history, doesn't work in Judaisim, and other lovely things.)
All I asked is for a single source that says as FS keeps posting.
She cant provide it.
And If I actually cared to read Prof. Kellners book I would not go to the library, I would purchase it.
It's just that I have no real interest in reading it.
I have waited for FS to give me a good reason to, Yet it hasn't come.
Oh Well.
maybe I'll give it one last shot.
Any sources FS, Any at all?

↑ shalhevet

Thu, Jun 27 2013, 3:55 am

freidasima wrote:

From what you have posted, it sounds to me that this book is apikorsus and is assur to read.

Now I've just confirmed everything you think, right FS? Because you think the ultimate in intelligence is to be open minded enough to read every stupid thing anyone in the whole wide world with enough time and money to publish it (and today, people don't even need that, they can blog) has written.

But we don't think that. We don't think our uneducated dodo-brains are sewers to put any old garbage in and have to sift through it. We don't think it is clever to use a washing machine without reading the instruction book and loading it with filthy clothes with old nails and grease in the pockets to see what will happen. We think our brains are a gift from Hashem and that He sent us our chachamim and gedolim to guide us what we should read and listen to. To get closer to being 'betzelem Elokim', closer to the ideal of Mesilas Yesharim, not waste our time distancing ourselves from it.

So we will proudly not read the books you recommend. And proudly focus our attention on growing in emuna and avodas Hashem to the best of our abilities.

↑ Potato Kugel ↓

Thu, Jun 27 2013, 4:06 am

I will say that from reading the reviews on Prof Kellners book it doesn't really come accross as anything worth reading on an intellectual basis.
Basically the most positive reviews are "well it's well written, makes some good points on individual basis, but the whole thing together makes no sense".
But the again somehow I have a hard time believing that the U of Haifa (where Prof Kellner "teaches") would let in a Rabbi who wrote an accepted Torah work.

↑ yogabird ↓

Thu, Jun 27 2013, 7:51 am

freidasima wrote:

You ladies really live in the twilight zone. Wow.

Yup. That's what chazal call the era before the coming of Moshiach-erev shabbos. the twilight zone.

(one of the explanations for this metaphor: twilight is a mixture of day and night, light and darkness. In the time of moshiach there will be great g-dly revelations hinting at what is to come, as well as deep, heavy galus-darkness keeping us lost and confused. Look for the light. A little bit of light dispels a lot of darkness.)

Last edited by yogabird on Thu, Jun 27 2013, 8:23 am; edited 1 time in total

↑ PinkFridge ↓

Thu, Jun 27 2013, 8:21 am

Potato Kugel wrote:

To be fair to Freidasima, she's said that R Berger only says that about a certain section of his book, but evidently, I assume, has no problem holding the rest in regard.

All that said, I will grant that it's going to be impossible or close to it to have such a conversation. Even if I were to get hold of the book, I doubt I could give it the careful reading I'd need to to engage in such conversation. Luckily, over the course of my life, I've had exposure to many brilliant, educated people whose Torah and outlook I hold by, and I don't feel that my avodah will be less meaningful if I don't.

Not being a fly on the wall, I do wonder how many people have this level of scholarship. As Freidasima's mentioned this is just one approach, and there are others, I don't know which are also considered legitimate, which are considered Kool Aid. I guess the MO forum is just flying with vigorous and stimulating debate now. Oh well, I'll have to miss out on it....

↑ fromthedepths ↓

Thu, Jun 27 2013, 9:12 am

yogabird wrote:

freidasima wrote:

You ladies really live in the twilight zone. Wow.

I love your post, yogabird!

↑ yogabird ↓

Thu, Jun 27 2013, 9:14 am

fromthedepths wrote:

yogabird wrote:

freidasima wrote:

You ladies really live in the twilight zone. Wow.

I love your post, yogabird!

and if you find the light and cling to it, you are taking yourself out of galus.

because mindset is what galus and geulah are all about.

Last edited by yogabird on Thu, Jun 27 2013, 9:19 am; edited 1 time in total