Mashiach and Eliyahu Hanavi

↑ freidasima ↓

Wed, Jun 26 2013, 8:29 am

Yoga to the best of my knowledge there is no such mitzva to believe in geula. The only mitzva of belief, as I keep repeating, is that of belief in Hashem, the one and only, omnipotent, uncorporeal, creator of the universe and giver of the one and only true and unchangeable torah.

Before anyone asks. of COURSE I believe in that, fully and faithfully and hope to be zocheh to continue believing in it for the rest of my life.

As I keep writing, there is really no problem for any orthodox Jew in discussing the first 9, and actually eleven ikarim. There is a question of whether reward and punishment from Hashem will be in olam haze or olam habo, there are different rabbinical opinions about whether it is fundamental to believe that the reward and punishment is anywhere but here. But reward and punishment? From Hashem? Surely.

The problems only begin with the issues of moshiach and techiyas hamesim. I for one think that it is better to ascribe to the original arabic meaning of "I hope with perfect faith" for those two rather than the dogmatic "I believe". Because I truly hope, with perfect faith that there is a moshiach of sorts and I truly hope with perfect faith that there will be a ressurection of the dead at some point in some fashion, not necessarily a corporeal but definitely an eternal soul type. To say however cagegorically "I believe"? That's hard.

I believe categorically in Hashem etc. I hope with perfect faith in the last two. In the part of the orthodox world from which I come, that's just fine orthodox wise.

↑ chani8 ↓

Wed, Jun 26 2013, 8:44 am

chocolate fondue wrote:

By the way, I didn't mention Parshas Netzavim in my list of times that Moshiach is mentioned in the Torah. See Devarim, 30, where Hashem speaks about kibbutz goluyos and more. Again, it is not necessarily crystal clear just by reading the posuk.

Bingo. Thank you. Also, thank you Potato Kugel for taking the time to write all that. 5*Mom had also explained that same inyan to me. So did Pink Fridge. Probably yogabird, too. But honestly, that just wasn't satisfying at all.

Netzavim seems very clear to me. Nothing hidden. It says,

Quote:

"It will be that when all these things come upon you - the blessing and the curse that I have presented before you- then you will take it to your heart among all the nations where Hashem, your G-d, has dispersed you; and you will return unto Hashem, your G-d and listen to His voice, according to everything that I command you today, you and your chidren, with all your heart and all your soul. Then Hashem, your God, will bring back your captivity and have mercy upon you and He will gather you in from all the peoples to which Hashem, your G-d, has scattered you. If your dispersed will be at the ends of heaven, from there Hashem, your God, will gather you in and from there He will take you. Hashem, your G-d will bring you to the land that your forefathers possessed and you shall posses it; He will do good to you and make you more numerous than your forefathers. Hashem, your G-d , will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, to love Hashem, your G-d with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live."

To me this reads that G-d Himself will redeem us. Wasn't He the One who redeemed us from Mitzrayim?

I'm just a simple unlearned Jew, and my Torah says that G-d will redeem us. I'm guessing from what I've seen being battled about here, and from the Rambam's ani maamins, that just like Hashem used Moshe as a front man, we hope/believe He'll use another front man (or two), who we will call moshiach/s.

And look, it says right here that He'll even bring back the dead, as it says, "from the ends of heaven".

↑ Potato Kugel ↓

Wed, Jun 26 2013, 9:06 am

So FS states again and again there is no Rabbi who states that one is not a good jew if they do not beleive in Moshiach.
Potato Kugel brings a Laundry list of Halachic Sources, Teshuvos written throughout a period of Hundreds of years where Rabbis state specifically one who does not believe in Moshiach is either a Rosha, Kofer or Min.
None of those are good jews.
FS continues to ramble on with Diatribes against Chareidim and every put down she can think of.
However no sources.
Not one single Rabbi or any Halachic Source from any time period that has ever stated one can be a good jew and not believe in Moshiach.
And the reason is pretty simple.
There are none.
And Kallner's book it seems has been criticized by Rabbi. Prof. Berger as being "inaccurat, misinterpeting and plain wrong.

↑ yogabird ↓

Wed, Jun 26 2013, 9:11 am

Goodmorning, goodmorning. I hope you don't mind that I took the liberty to repost this here...

goodmorning wrote:

freidasima wrote:

but we aren't talking halocho. There are no halochos vis a vis the messianic concept. Therefore there is nothing one has to "keep". Or even accept, in order to be a good Jew.

Hashkofo, versus halocho.
To be a good Jew one has to Believe in G-d, that he is one, singular and gave us the torah and to keep the legalities. You want to believe in additional concepts as a credo? Fine, but being a good Jew isn't predicated on accepting those concepts.

So why are people here so up in arms when it is mentioned that it is interesting that the messianic concept does not appear in any written Judaic texts (tanach) and only appears in the later mishnaic and talmudic discussions of countering the Xtian messianic concept?

It's not halocho.

Source?

Because here's what the Rambam has to say about the belief in Moshiach (from his introduction to his commentary of Perek Cheilek):

Quote:

The Twelfth Fundamental Principle refers to the Messianic Era. We are to believe as fact that the messiah will come and not consider him late. If he delays, wait for him (Hab. 2:3); set no time limit for his coming ... One must believe that Messiah will have more station and honor than all the kings who ever lived, as all the prophets from Moses to Malachi prophesied: Whoever doubts this or minimizes it denies the passage begins, “You are standing”(Deut.29:9). A corollary of this principle is the assertion that the king of Israel must come only from the house of David and seed of Solomon. Anyone
who rejects this family denies God and the words of His prophets ...

When a man believes in all these fundamental principles, and his faith is thus clarified, he is then part of that “Israel” whom we are to love, pity and treat as God commanded, with love and fellowship. Even if a Jew should commit every possible sin, out of lust or mastery by his lower nature, he will be punished for his sins but will still have a share in the world to come. He is one of the “sinners in Israel.” But if a man gives up any one of these fundamental principles, he has removed himself from the Jewish community. He is an atheist, a heretic, an unbeliever who “cuts among the plantings.” We are commanded to hate him and to destroy him. Of Him it is said: “Shall I not hate those who hate You, O Lord?” (Ps. 139:21).

And because you will assure me that we "don't pasken like the Rambam," here are the words of R' Yosef Albo, whose philosophy diverged widely from the Rambam (book 4, chapter 42):

Quote:

Every adherent of the Law of Moses is obliged to believe in the coming of the Messiah, as we explained above. The Torah expressly commands us to believe in the words of the prophet: "Unto him ye shall hearken." But the prophets announced the coming of the Messiah; hence it is clear that any one who does not believe in the coming of the Messiah denies the words of the prophets and transgresses a mandatory precept."

↑ freidasima ↓

Wed, Jun 26 2013, 9:18 am

Potato - I see that in spite of what I wrote you insist on calling him Kallner with an "A" instead of Kellner with an E. I wonder why.

As a therapist one might say that it represents either an accidental mental block, or a deliberate attempt not to deal correctly with something.

Maybe if you would read Rabbi Prof. Kellner's book and you would read the entire review by RABBI Profeesor David Berger you would then know what section Rabbi B. was referring to. He was referring to and ONLY referring to the last section of the book where Rabbi Prof. Kellner writes about coalescence bewteen the Orthodox, Conservative and Reform. Rabbi Prof. Berger has no problems with anything that Rabbi Prof. Kellner writes about Rambam's ikkarim.

But to know that, you actually would have had to read the entire review and the entire book which you haven't.

Yoga - to do that you first have to define what you mean by "geula" and what the religious parameters of what you call a "chiyuv" are.

Where in the shulchan oruch or its commentaries does it say that it is a mitzva to believe in geula or an aveiro not to believe in it?

Because halochially, all "chiyuvim" come from either mitzvos or aveiros. They aren't chiyuvim of belief other than the belief in Hashem, his singularity, omnipotence, etc...but we have been through that already.

Potato regarding the yemenites, I can send you to a bunch of sources regarding the custom and the problem involved starting from things written by Rav Yossef Kapah, through studies written by Rav. Prof. Gaimani who discusses it in detail, but I'm sure you will say that as he is a professor, he is possul inspite of the fact that he is considered today probably the world's greatest and most knowledgeable person who deals with the halochos, traditions and daily life of yemenite Jewry both in Yemen and in EY.

↑ freidasima ↓

Wed, Jun 26 2013, 9:21 am

From what I remember learning the reason it wasn't picked up on was that the oldest most original text only came to light with the discovery of the Cairo Geniza at the beginning of the 20th century. And it has been discussed in depth since then.

Yes, "I believe" and "I hope" both with perfect faith are two different concepts. I'll see if I can find a source but I learned this ages ago and it's not really the kind of topic that I deal with on any basis other than in Imamother discussions. Not my field of work.... Could be that Rabbi Prof. Jeffrey Wolff has written about it. Will check.

↑ goodmorning ↓

Wed, Jun 26 2013, 10:25 am

freidasima wrote:

Here is again, the quote from the Rambam's Mishne Torah, written in Hebrew, so there's no ambiguity whatsoever:

Quote:

וכל מי שאינו מאמין בו, או מי שאינו מחכה לביאתו--לא בשאר נביאים בלבד הוא כופר, אלא בתורה ובמשה רבנו: שהרי תורה העידה עליו, שנאמר "ושב ה' אלוהיך את שבותך, וריחמך; ושב, וקיבצך מכל העמים . . . אם יהיה נידחך, בקצה השמיים--משם, יקבצך ה' אלוהיך, ומשם, ייקחך. והביאך ה' אלוהיך . . ." (דברים ל,ג-ה). ואלו הדברים המפורשים בתורה, הם כוללים כל הדברים שנאמרו על ידי כל הנביאים.
Anyone who does not believe in him or does not await his coming, denies not only the statements of the other prophets, but those of the Torah and Moses, our teacher. The Torah testified to his coming, as Deuteronomy 30:3-5 states:

God will bring back your captivity and have mercy upon you. He will again gather you from among the nations... Even if your Diaspora is at the ends of the heavens, God will gather you up from there... and bring you to the land....

These explicit words of the Torah include all the statements made by all the prophets.

↑ goodmorning ↓

Wed, Jun 26 2013, 10:27 am

freidasima wrote:

We aren't talking paskening here, we are talking hashkofo.

Shmuel's statement is the only one that is accepted hashkofically across the board by all Orthodox Jewish rabbonim from all orthodox Jewish groups, with which the Rambam himself agrees, saying there will be nothing magical mystical or against nature at the time of the moshiach.

I actually don't think that this is true. The Ramban's vision of yemos haMoshiach, for example, is quite supernatural. I don't think it fits with Shmuel's statement at all.

(The Rambam's does, of course, but his description makes it clear that although yemos haMoshiach will retain the natural order of the world, they will be extraordinarily peaceful and enriched. It is by no means a political reality only.)

↑ goodmorning ↓

Wed, Jun 26 2013, 10:29 am

freidasima wrote:

Tthere isn't a single poster who has brought a source that it is a mitzva to believe in the ikkarim other than the ones about the existence, singularity and omnipotence of Hashem who created the universe and gave us the torah. And there isn't a single poster who has brought a source showing that it is an aveiro not to believe in the ikkarim that don't speak about the above.

No one has brought a source for the above either, besides for the sources which also speak about the last few. Can you?

Nowhere in SA that I could find contains a requirement to believe in the "existence, singularity and omnipotence of Hashem who created the universe and gave us the torah." Can you point out your halachic source for this?

↑ chocolate fondue ↓

Wed, Jun 26 2013, 11:29 am

freidasima wrote:

The Rambam's Mishne Torah is a book on HALACHA. NOT HASHKOFA. HE IS PASKENING. NOT OFFERING HIS HASHKOFIC OPINION. HE IS THE ONLY ONE WHO PASKENS ON YEMOIS HAMOSHIACH.

Rambam agrees with Shmuel and still PASKENS:

Quote:

1. In future time, the King Moshiach [1] will arise and renew the Davidic dynasty, restoring it to its initial sovereignty. He will rebuild the [Beis Ha]Mikdash and gather in the dispersed remnant of Israel. Then, in his days, all the statutes will be reinstituted as in former times. We will offer sacrifices and observe the Sabbatical and Jubilee years according to all their particulars set forth in the Torah.

Whoever does not believe in him, or does not await his coming, denies not only [the statements of] the other prophets, but also [those of] the Torah and of Moshe, our teacher, for the Torah attests to his coming, stating: [Devarim 30:3-5]

and:

Quote:

5. In that Era there will be neither famine nor war, neither envy nor competition, for good things will flow in abundance and all the delights will be as freely available as dust. The occupation of the entire world will be solely to know G-d. The Jews will therefore be great sages and know the hidden matters, and will attain an understanding of their Creator to the [full] extent of human potential; as it is written [Yeshayahu 11:9], "For the world will be filled with the knowledge of G-d as the waters cover the ocean bed."

Nothing to do with his ikkrim. His ikkarim state what Jews believe. Here he states Halacha to do with when Moshiach comes.
I am still waiting for your sources. Quote Kellner's sources if you want. We are all bringing quotes. You are hiding behind one book snd telling us to go read it.

Bottom Line: You are missing the point of the coming of Moshiach and Era of the Redemption: Shleimus HaTorah VehaMitzvos. The Purpose of the Creation. Not just an autonomous State of Israel, while we hope Hashem decides to give us all the rest of the things He promised in Tanach.

Last edited by chocolate fondue on Wed, Jun 26 2013, 11:38 am; edited 1 time in total