Mashiach and Eliyahu Hanavi

↑ yogabird ↓

Tue, Jun 25 2013, 8:28 am

fromthedepths wrote:

Isramom8 wrote:

I do believe this debate can be reconciled. When we talk about there no longer being "shibud malchiyos", although that literally means "foreign rule", it's a deep concept. We will be free of the rule of the influences of foreign nations and their mentalities on our choices. Therefore, no distracting hanky panky that now leads us astray and away from focusing completely and thorougly on avodas Hashem.

That. See Brachos 17a: "our will is to do your will, but the leaven in the dough and shibud malchiyos get in the way".

How's that for Gemara inside, BTW?

for Isramom!

I was itching to say something like this the entire time, but kept quiet for lack of direct source, and for fear of being assaulted with koolaid...

↑ fromthedepths ↓

Tue, Jun 25 2013, 8:39 am

FS, now your post makes me sad. I never said anything at all derogatory about MO/DL. I have great respect for their leaders. I've met intensely spiritual DL people. I would never make any blanket statements about the group as a whole. Or any group, for that matter.

You, OTOH, keep trying to pigeon hole me (hah! Good luck!), make all kinds of assumptions about me, imply that I am ignorant, and so on and so forth. Why don't you just admit it? This has nothing to do with mashiach. This has to do with your antipathy towards chareidim.

So which one of us here is claiming that their way is the only way and those who make different choices are not good Jews?

As to the author of Bilvavi, I know his name, as do many others in "my world." He gives shiurim, both in person and over the phone, and is generally accessible (for those who understand Hebrew, that is; he doesn't speak English). Why don't you watch the video I posted above where he talks about his background? He learned in the Ponevezh yeshiva. He does not have a secular degree or title, but in "my world" that is not a requirement for sincere avodas Hashem, and for inspiring others towards avodas Hashem.

And guess what I see and deal with? Lots and lots of young Jews who only learned dry halacha, found it completely uninspiring, did not find it helpful in dealing with life's challenges, and were ready to drop all of Yiddishkeit as soon as life got too painful. Why? Because they never developed a personal relationship with HKB"H. Just read the issue of Klal Perspectives that analyzes this phenomenon in depth and discusses potential solutions. (Don't have time to find the link ATM, so you can google it yourself, if you're interested.)

All the negativity here on this site is contagious. I might need a break from it. At least for the Three Weeks. Have an easy fast everyone!

↑ PinkFridge ↓

Tue, Jun 25 2013, 8:47 am

freidasima wrote:

Chocolate - keeping a mitzva correctly is not being a robot. You keep it because G-d commanded it, period. You keep it because you buy into a system in which G-d is king, you are his servant. You keep a commandment just because it was commanded by your king. That should be enough reason.
.

Two words: Avinu Malkeinu.
And since I want to work forward through the next two pages instead of backward through the first few, I remember you mentioning that the Kellner book should be somewhat accessible. If I could trouble you, what is the title (or titles) and author's full name? Thanks.

↑ PinkFridge ↓

Tue, Jun 25 2013, 8:50 am

freidasima wrote:

Yoga I know Hebrew etymology pretty well but I don't follow your deconstruction of the world mitzva. Maybe because it is in transliteration. What is the word in Ivrit that means connection that is the root of the word mitzva? Tzadik, Vav, hey. Tzaveh. Command. Not connect. Connect is Kuf Shin Resh root. Kesher. Tzaveh is one way. Kesher is two ways. That's the root difference and etymology of the roots.

No one claims that the legal system doesn't have a context. All legal systems do. However the minute you go into context you realize that you are opening yourself up to the bogeyman I keep citing that you fear. Social Construct. Because the minute you say that a legal system is connected to its context it is connected to its social construct. And thus, when a new and contrary social construct to the previous takes over the world in which one lives, that legal system, if it is created to a social construct...well that, that is an opening for the demand to change/alter what is in that legal system. And then how much does one change? and if it no longer has any bearing on the social construct in which one lives because one took the context into account when keeping the legal system...well if one claims that one can't change the fundamentals of that legal system (or any of it, as many charedi groups do...) well that will cause tremendous dichotomy for the people keeping that legal system and ultimately cause many to just chuck up the whole thing.

As many in the charedi world are doing all over the world, just quietly so that the charedim try and ignore it.

That's the difference. A dati leumi or MO who has a problem with the system, picks and chooses and doesnt keep everything (or keep correctly one would say).
A charedi who has a problem with the system? They chuck the whole thing away and usually become nothing because the concept of becoming MO/Dl is anathema to them.
And then they are lost for good.

that's the problem with not viewing Judaism as a legal system but starting to look for the significance of broader context.

But why should anyone have any problem with doing a mitzvah if our King commands us? Why are people chucking anything? If they have problems are they truly studying, grappling, consulting with others more experienced and wiser before chucking anything? Doesn't matter where on the spectrum they are.

↑ PinkFridge ↓

Tue, Jun 25 2013, 8:57 am

5*Mom wrote:

yogabird wrote:

And if you want people to hear you better, how about this:

As opposed to "the only thing we have to believe about moshiach is that shibud malchuyos will end. everything else is koolaid."

Try this: "there are so many various and often contradictory statements in the works of chazal regarding the era of Moshiach that even the most erudite scholars have a difficult time forming a coherent picture of what that time will look like. But there is one thing we know for sure will happen, because this is the only statement brought down as a halachic opinion, and that is that there will be no more shibud malchuyos."

Personally, I'd have no problem accepting the latter whatsoever.

Yes, exactly!

FS, really, can't we have a discussion without the gratuitous vitriol? It doesn't help you get your point across, it doesn't make you look very good either, and it's unpleasant to be in the room. If you feel that others aren't understanding you, try explaining yourself more clearly (which Yogabird just did for you). But please do stop the ranting.

Um, I think we have to bend over backwards, from wherever we are in this conversation, not to inject an atom of snark in.

↑ freidasima ↓

Tue, Jun 25 2013, 10:04 am

Pink I PMd you

↑ 5*Mom ↓

Tue, Jun 25 2013, 10:52 am

PinkFridge wrote:

5*Mom wrote:

yogabird wrote:

Um, I think we have to bend over backwards, from wherever we are in this conversation, not to inject an atom of snark in.

You mean like "um?"

If you read snark in my comment, you misread.

↑ PinkFridge ↓

Tue, Jun 25 2013, 11:32 am

5*Mom wrote:

[

FS, really, can't we have a discussion without the gratuitous vitriol? It doesn't help you get your point across, it doesn't make you look very good either, and it's unpleasant to be in the room. If you feel that others aren't understanding you, try explaining yourself more clearly (which Yogabird just did for you). But please do stop the ranting.

Um, I think we have to bend over backwards, from wherever we are in this conversation, not to inject an atom of snark in.[/quote]

You mean like "um?"

If you read snark in my comment, you misread.[/quote]

No I didn't, in fact davka not this snip. But I have picked it up in other messages. I see this kind of tenor in all sorts of topics, from all sides, and I'm sure I may have bordered on the sarcastic on occasion. It's hard when one is very passionate and, as the cartoon goes, someone is [possibly] wrong on the internet. Just a gentle reminder to everyone, especially myself.

↑ chani8 ↓

Tue, Jun 25 2013, 12:46 pm

chocolate fondue wrote:

5*Mom wrote:

chani8 wrote:

Just curious, is there ever a mention of moshiach in chumash? I really don't recall there being anything.

When is the first time in our liturature that we learn of the concept of moshiach?

There are references in the chumash. They are elucidated through the mefarshim. Just as there are mitzvos and halachos written cryptically in the Torah that can only be properly understood through the mefarshim and the mesorah (Oral Torah), so too are there concepts in Jewish thought, such as Mashiach, that are alluded to cryptically in the Torah and can be understood (probably not fully, though; here I agree with FS) through the mefarshim and the mesorah.

Just to start you off, Chani8: Yaacov Avinu wanted to reveal to his sons the 'what will befall you in the end of days'. (Bereishis 49:1) Rashi explains he wished to reveal the end to them, but the Shechina left him so he began to say other things. The Gur Aryeh clarifies that the end refers to the ultimate conclusion of all the exiles of the Jewish people.

As I mentioned before: The second posuk of Bereishis says, “The spirit of G-d hovered above the waters,” on which the Midrash comments, “This is the spirit of Melech HaMoshiach.” (Bereishis Rabba 2, 4)

As Poel MAmosh pointed out, Bilaam's prophecies refer to Moshiach:

Quote:

Also in the story of Bilaam is it spoken of, and there it is prophesied on the two "anointed ones": the first Moshiach, which is David, who saved Israel from its enemies; and the last Moshiach, who shall be of his descendents, who will save Israel in the end [of the Exile]. There he says: "I see him, but not now"--this is David; "I behold him, but he is not near"--this is the King Moshiach; "There shall shoot forth a star out of Jacob"--this is David; "And a scepter shall rise out of Israel"--this is the King Moshiach; "And shall smite the corners of Moab"--this is David, as it is written (II Samuel 8:2) "And he smote Moab, and he measured them with a line"; "And rule over all the children of Seth"--this is the King Moshiach, as it is written (Zachariah 9:10), "And his dominion shall be from sea to sea"...

Of course, the Torah isn't going to say the Moshiach must come from Dovid Hamelech because Dovid HaMelech hadn't been born yet. But Yaacov refers to Yehudah's kingship and prophecies that Dovid and Moshiach will come from him. See Breishis 49:8-10 with Rashi.

I'm sure that there are many more references. This is just what I have at the top of my head right now.

Thank you so much!!! But why was the concept of moshiach only alluded to in the Torah? Something this major not being mentioned directly??? (I'm disappointed to learn this.)

↑ PinkFridge ↓

Tue, Jun 25 2013, 2:18 pm

chani8 wrote:

[

Thank you so much!!! But why was the concept of moshiach only alluded to in the Torah? Something this major not being mentioned directly??? (I'm disappointed to learn this.)

Well, ideally there was just going to be one BHM"K and we were going to get it right the first time. No galus, no geulah. Yes, there were all the visions (the bris ben habesarim, e.g.) but we still had bechira. At least AFAIU. I might be wrong.

↑ yogabird ↓

Tue, Jun 25 2013, 2:58 pm

I actually think that makes a lot of sense, pinkfridge. It's not supposed to be glaringly obvious from a face value reading of the Torah, because it wasn't part of the ideal plan.

But since Hashem knew what was going to happen, and that it would be necessary, there are hints of this all over the torah, so we can find in them in retrospect. Starting with that rashi in bereishis.

↑ goodmorning ↓

Tue, Jun 25 2013, 3:35 pm

freidasima wrote:

This appears to have become a closed discussion among charedi posters who are basically patting each other on the back vis a vis who had drunken deepest of koolaid and who can insult non charedi groups more. No wonder the other MOs dropped out long ago.

First you give an explanation which is only Zohar (and rather "popular zohar" or "zohar for the masses" - do you REALLY think that you understand ZOHAR??!!!!).
Then you claim that is the definitive interpretation and anyone who uses the understanding of the term the way 99.99% frum Jews do is missing the real point.

Just to clarify. There is no debate over the concept of "Moshiach" being a king to rule over Israel as per the widely excepted "אין בין העולם הזה לימות המשיח אלא שיעבוד מלכויות בלבד" from Brochos 34b. But be honest, that's NOT what you charedi ladies are talking about. Are you willing to accept the concept of such a king during whose time people sin, are born, die, are punished, people get cancer, rabbis commit fraud, pedophilia and adultery and still are revered by frum communities, where one group of Jews lambasts and mosers another etc.? Because that is what Shmuel is talking about in the gemoro. The only difference of having such a "moshiach" king is in terms of Israel's "international relations". And it doesn't mean the end of wars and devastation, only that Israel will make its own political and military decisions, not that it will make the right one, not that this moshiach is infallable and not that he going to solve the problems of the Jewish people.

But let's be honest, that's NOT the moshiach you ladies mean with your heartfelt cries here on imamother and elsewhere of "we want moshiach now". You aren't thinking about American, turkish or Iranian hegemony. you are thinking kool aid kind of stuff.

And THAT is what I am coming out against here. That kind of moshiach? It doesn't exist in any educated MO person's world. Even more so, to be frum one does NOT have to believe in "moshiach" of any kind. only in the revival of the dead. One who does not believe in Moshiach HAS A PLACE IN OLAM HABO. The same does not hold true in Jewish dicta vis a vis someone who does not believe in techiyas hameisim. But there is absolutely no connection between belief in the two things. Something which you charedi ladies will once again not accept. Because you have not really learned gemoro from the source have you. Only "ladies interpretations." and quotes that they taught you from mussar books in ladies seminaries.

Ladies go fill yourselves up with Shas and Poskim before you go and argue with someone who has learned all this stuff "from inside" for decades.
"

I don't know that your vision is an accurate portrayal of yemos haMoshiach even according to those who view it as just a lack of shibud hamalchiyos.

The Rambam is probably the biggest proponent of that view, and here is how he depicts yemos haMoshiach (hilchos Melachim 12):

Quote:

א אל יעלה על הלב שבימות המשיח, ייבטל דבר ממנהגו של עולם, או יהיה שם חידוש במעשה בראשית; אלא עולם כמנהגו הולך. וזה שנאמר בישעיה "וגר זאב עם כבש, ונמר עם גדי ירבץ" (ישעיהו יא,ו), משל וחידה. עניין הדבר--שיהיו ישראל יושבין לבטח עם רשעי העולם, המשולים בזאב ונמר: שנאמר "זאב ערבות ישודדם--נמר שוקד על עריהם" (ירמיהו ה,ו). ויחזרו כולם לדת האמת, ולא יגזולו ולא ישחיתו, אלא יאכלו דבר המותר בנחת כישראל, שנאמר "ואריה, כבקר יאכל תבן" (ישעיהו יא,ז; ישעיהו סה,כה).

ב וכן כל כיוצא באלו הדברים הכתובין בעניין המשיח, משלים הם; ובימות המלך המשיח ייוודע לכול לאיזה דבר היו משל, ומה עניין רמוז בהן. [ב] אמרו חכמים, אין בין העולם הזה לימות המשיח, אלא שיעבוד מלכייות בלבד.

ח [ה] ובאותו הזמן, לא יהיה שם לא רעב ולא מלחמה ולא קנאה ותחרות--שהטובה תהיה מושפעת הרבה, וכל המעדנים מצויין כעפר. ולא יהיה עסק כל העולם, אלא לדעת את ה' בלבד. ולפיכך יהיו חכמים גדולים, ויודעים דברים הסתומים העמוקים; וישיגו דעת בוראם כפי כוח האדם, שנאמר "כי מלאה הארץ, דעה את ה', כמים, לים מכסים" (ישעיהו יא,ט). ...

[ה] ובאותו הזמן, לא יהיה שם לא רעב ולא מלחמה ולא קנאה ותחרות--שהטובה תהיה מושפעת הרבה, וכל המעדנים מצויין כעפר. ולא יהיה עסק כל העולם, אלא לדעת את ה' בלבד. ולפיכך יהיו חכמים גדולים, ויודעים דברים הסתומים העמוקים; וישיגו דעת בוראם כפי כוח האדם, שנאמר "כי מלאה הארץ, דעה את ה', כמים, לים מכסים" (ישעיהו יא,ט).

Quote:

Do not presume that in the Messianic age any facet of the world's nature will change or there will be innovations in the work of creation. Rather, the world will continue according to its pattern.

Although Isaiah 11:6 states: 'The wolf will dwell with the lamb, the leopard will lie down with the young goat,' these words are a metaphor and a parable. The interpretation of the prophecy is as follows: Israel will dwell securely together with the wicked gentiles who are likened to a wolf and a leopard, as in the prophecy Jeremiah 5:6: 'A wolf from the wilderness shall spoil them and a leopard will stalk their cities.' They will all return to the true faith and no longer steal or destroy. Rather, they will eat permitted food at peace with Israel as Isaiah 11:7 states: 'The lion will eat straw like an ox.'

Similarly, other Messianic prophecies of this nature are metaphors. In the Messianic era, everyone will realize which matters were implied by these metaphors and which allusions they contained.

Halacha 2
Our Sages taught: "There will be no difference between the current age and the Messianic era except the emancipation from our subjugation to the gentile kingdoms." ....

Halacha 5
In that era, there will be neither famine or war, envy or competition for good will flow in abundance and all the delights will be freely available as dust. The occupation of the entire world will be solely to know God.

Therefore, the Jews will be great sages and know the hidden matters, grasping the knowledge of their Creator according to the full extent of human potential, as Isaiah 11:9 states: 'The world will be filled with the knowledge of God as the waters cover the ocean bed."

Even the rationalist Rambam envisions yemos haMoshiach as having no political wars, no machlokes in Klal Yisroel, no famine (and I don't have a hard time extrapolating to cancer as well), abundance of material comforts and time to learn Torah and achieve a high level of "knowing" Hashem.

A very different world than the one that you described.

↑ chocolate fondue ↓

Tue, Jun 25 2013, 7:07 pm

Why can't we bring proofs straight from Tanach? Here are few to start with:

The Sanhedrin will be re-established (Isaiah 1:26)
Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance (Isaiah 2:4)
The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:17)
He will be descended from King David (Isaiah 11:1) via King Solomon (1 Chron. 22:8–10)
The moshiach will be a man of this world, an observant Jew with "fear of God" (Isaiah 11:2)
Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership (Isaiah 11:4)
Knowledge of God will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9)
He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10)
All Israelites will be returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12, Zechariah 10:6)
Death will be swallowed up forever (Isaiah 25:8)
There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8)
The dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19)
The house of David shall be as God (Zechariah 12:8)
God will seek to destroy all the nations that go against Jerusalem (Zechariah 12:9, Isaiah 60:12)
Israel and Judah will be made into one nation again (Zechariah 11:12-14, Ezekiel 37:16-22)
The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11)
He will be a messenger of peace (Isaiah 53:7)
Nations will recognize the wrongs they did Israel (Isaiah 52:13–53:5)
The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23)
The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55)
Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9)
The Temple will be rebuilt (Ezekiel 40) resuming many of the suspended mitzvot
He will then perfect the entire world to serve God together (Zephaniah 3:9)
He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful (Isaiah 51:3, Amos 9:13–15, Ezekiel 36:29–30, Isaiah 11:6–9)

↑ chocolate fondue ↓

Tue, Jun 25 2013, 7:39 pm

Okay, now quotes from the Gemara:

In the future there will be no death in the world. (Mishna Moed Katan 3:9)

Yuma 21b: Discusses the return of the Beis Hamikdash with all the wondrous things that were in it, including the miraculous golden fruits that Shlomo put in the first Beis Hamikdash.

Pesachim 118b: Discusses the nations bringing gifts to Moshiach and how Edom will beg to have his gift accepted and it will be refused.

Sanhedrin 100: Discusses how in the future Hashem will make a river go forth from the kodesh hakedoshim and all kinds of wonderful fruits with special healing powers will grow alongside it.

Sanhedrin 99a: Rabbi Yochanan argues with Shmuel and holds that all the wondrous things that the neviim spoke about will be in Yemos Hamoshiach.

Shabbos 151b: There is also an opinion that disagrees with Shmuel.

Shabbos 63a: According to one opinion, Rabbi Eliezer's approach is not according to Shmuel: he discusses weapons being null and void.

Kesubos 112b: Discusses how all regular trees will bear fruit in the future

Sukka 52a: Discusses the yetzer hora being shechted in the times of Moshiach. (Hey, no sinners! No rabbis committing fraud, paedophilia and adultery)

Kesubos 111b: Discusses all the unnatural things that will come out of the earth and the unnatural way that things will grow in the future.

Avodah Zarah 3b: Hashem will remove the sun from its sheath to destroy the wicked so there will be no need for gehinom

Also, don’t forget that it states in Sota 49b that in the times before Moshiach there will be an abundance of chutzpa…!

(With huge thanks to my husband who checked up all these sources for me!)

↑ chocolate fondue ↓

Tue, Jun 25 2013, 8:05 pm

The Shaloh explains that even according to Shmuel, that which the other opinions in the Gemara state - that there will be major changes in the world - will take place at a later stage in the times of Moshiach. (See Shaloh, Volume 1 pg 102 and onwards in the Oz VeHodor edition. A fascinating explanation of how, at some stage, Shmuel agress with all the other opinions)

This is without even getting into the Rambam's Hilchos Melachim of the final book (Sefer Shoftim - "The Book of Judges") of the Mishneh Torah, (sometimes referred to separately as Hilchos Melech HaMoshiach). The Rambam is the only one who paskens on the halochos of Moshiach. Therefore there is no reason not to follow his psak:

"5. In that Era there will be neither famine nor war, neither envy nor competition, for good things will flow in abundance and all the delights will be as freely available as dust. The occupation of the entire world will be solely to know G-d. The Jews will therefore be great sages and know the hidden matters, and will attain an understanding of their Creator to the [full] extent of human potential; as it is written [Yeshayahu 11:9], "For the world will be filled with the knowledge of G-d as the waters cover the ocean bed." "

And this is even though the Rambam paskens like Shmuel!

↑ chocolate fondue ↓

Tue, Jun 25 2013, 8:12 pm

One more thing:
According to the Rambam, the definition of Yemos HaMoshiach is a time when there will be Shleimos HaTorah vehaMitzvos; wholesomeness in Torah and the fulfillment of its Mitzvos through the Beis Hamikdash etc.
Source: Chapter 11 of Sefer Shoftim, Mishneh Torah.

↑ goodmorning ↓

Tue, Jun 25 2013, 9:03 pm

chocolate fondue wrote:

Why can't we bring proofs straight from Tanach? Here are few to start with:

Because it is often difficult to know from the pesukim alone what time period they are referring to. (In general, the topic of yemos haMoshiach vs. olam haba vs. gan eden is the subject of a great machlokes between the Rambam and the Ramban.)

To take two of your statements as examples -- the eradication of death and the resurrection of the dead -- according to the Rambam, neither of those is necessarily tied to yemos haMoshiach.

Two quotes from his Ma'amar Techiyas HaMeisim in reference to the above:

Quote:

וכבר ספקו ג"כ אנשים בדברנו בסוף החבור, במקום שאמרנו דבר זה לשונו:
"אל יעלה על דעתך שמלך המשיח צריך לעשות אותות ומופתים, ומחדש דברים בעולם, או יחיה מתים וכיוצא בדברים" וכו'
והבאנו ראיה על זה מה שביארנוהו. וחשבו קצת חלושי העיון, שזאת הכחשה לתחיית המתים, והוא סותר מה שביארנוהו בפירוש המשנה, שתחיית המתים פינה מפנות התורה.

וזה כולו מבואר, אין ספק בו ולא סתירה, והוא שאנחנו אמרנו שהמשיח לא יבוקש ממנו שיעשה מופת, שיבקע הים או יחיה מת על צד המופת, מפני שאין מבוקש ממנו מופת אחר שיעדו בו הנביאים אשר התאמתה נבואתם. ולא יתחייב מזה המאמר, שהשם לא יחיה מתים כשירצה ולמי שירצה, אם בימי המשיח או לפניו או אחרי מותו.
(...and this that which we have said, that Moshiach will not be requested to perform any miraculous signs, to split the sea or to resurrect the dead as a proof, because any prophet whose prophecy is proven is not asked for a sign, this does not prove that Hashem will not resurrect the dead when He wants and to whom He wants, during the times of Moshiach or before or after.)

Quote:

ם. וכן יראה לנו מן המאמרים ההם, שאלו האנשים אשר ישובו נפשותם לגופות ההם, יאכלו וישתו וישגלו ויולידו וימותו אחרי חיים ארוכים מאוד כחיים הנמצאים בימות המשיח. ואמנם החיים שאין מוות אחריהם, הוא חיי העה"ב, אחר שאין גוף בהם.
(paraphrase: during the time of Moshiach, people will eat and drink and reproduce and die after very long lives. It is the time of olam haba that is life without death afterwards...)

It is clear from the words of the Rambam that the pesukim about techiyas hameisim and the eradication of death do not refer to the days of Moshiach. And so on with several other of the concepts that you cited. It is not that the Rambam does not believe that they will happen chv"sh (though some he believes are just allegorical and were never intended to be taken literally), just that they will not happen necessarily during the days of Moshiach. (See the Ramban's Shaar HaGmul for a more supernatural view of yemos haMoshiach.)

That is why I showed that even according to the so-called "rationalist" view of the Rambam, the days of Moshiach will nevertheless be blissful and peaceful, and that pain and suffering and physical difficulties will be removed so that everyone will be able to spend their days learning Torah.

↑ poelmamosh

Tue, Jun 25 2013, 9:48 pm

chocolate fondue wrote:

I was coming back to post exactly this. I think this is the real crux of the issue and why the coming of Moshiach is such a central belief to halachically observant Jews.

↑ jerusalem-girl ↓

Tue, Jun 25 2013, 10:14 pm

I woke up early, because I really wanted to respond on this thread and I typed up a whole response before checking in (don't ask why I did THAT) and now I feel pretty superfluous, seeing all the amazing posts here.
Sad

I guess it was a good thing for me to get thinking about Mashiach properly.

OP, are your questions answered?

↑ goodmorning ↓

Tue, Jun 25 2013, 10:51 pm

jerusalem-girl wrote:

I guess it was a good thing for me to get thinking about Mashiach properly.

OP, are your questions answered?

Post anyway! (This was a great topic to think about on 17 Tammuz...)