I choose my teens over my religion!

↑ b from nj ↓

Thu, Dec 20 2012, 5:19 pm

amother wrote:

I'm the amother who posted about her relatives kids.
Chani8
You keep saying that teens should be treated as adults" and what not.
In my book, adults should have the baisic human charachter traits of gratitude, of respect for ones elders, respect for parents, and being concsious of their surroundings.
If a child can dress in a way that seriosly offends their parents sense of values and decency in front of their parents deliberatley hurting them, then that child is exhibiting extremely immature behaviour.
YEs I expect my child to care enough about my feelings in front of me to not wantonly do what they want, they can feel its nonsense.
Could be.
Makes no difference.
I am their mother.
I raised them.
I got up at night for them.
I paid tuition for them.
I did everything for them.
If they can't care enough about me to be respectful in my presence then they are not decent human beings.
And IMO if that should ch"v happen and there are no mental disorders.
Then Yes as hard as it may be for me to face the facts I failed as a parent.
My job as a parent is to make sure that at a bare minimum my children have basic moral values, a basic moral compass to be a credit and not burden to society.
And they better understand world does not revolve around them.
They are part of the world and better act like it.
B"h so far they have.
If a teen wants to be treated as an adult then they better act as an adult.
Now about "intermarrying" thats a thornier issue and really seperate from the thread as a whole and FTR record while I completley agree with FS on that point as well as I come from a family where traditionaly if a child intermarried one sat shiva for them.
In my family a child marrying out is literally an unspeakable horror.
It once came out in a conversation that one my Fathers nephews had "shmad zuch" (married out) and I asked my father why he did'nt tell me considering he had known it for months.
He just looked at me and said "I can't talk about such things, We don't talk about it".
However thats a religous issue making it a differnet topic then what the rest of the thread developed into.
What I find interesting is that I know for certain that I am well to the right of FS in Halacha yet I feel as if I so completley agree with FS on much of what she has written about parenting that I could have written it myself.
Why?
I attribute it not just to European and American parenting styles, rather to the fact genuine ethical values used to be a universal trait.
It was something self understood that crossed "party lines" so to speak.
It was one of those things that we could all unite around.
Sadly it has become "controversial".
IMHO raising children has become more about "being friends" with a child then actually raising that child to be a normal adult.

Amother, I think the reason you agree with FSs child-rearing opinions is b/c they are definitely NOT MO hashkafos by ANY stretch of the imagination. As she herself mentioned, her hashkafos in these matters are more like old fashioned chareidi hashkafos which is why I think you relate to them so well. Please do not confuse her opinions with mainstream MO child-rearing opinions b/c they are VERY contrary to many opinions on chinuch that I have heard from many MO & yeshivish experts on the topic such as R. Yakov Horowitz among others..

↑ ora_43 ↓

Thu, Dec 20 2012, 5:21 pm

I wish we could talk about parenting without predictions of doom Confused

. I believe most teens whose parents don't insist on respect in the home do end up respectful to others, and most whose parents do insist on respect in the home don't end up resentful and thinking it was all oppressive and unfair.

It's a cultural thing. That doesn't just mean different cultures having different opinions on the best approach, it means the best approach varies by culture. Raising your kids in the old European style in America is likely to cause problems and vice versa.

So far I think everyone's making good points. Each method has its advantages and its potential for going wrong.

↑ ora_43 ↓

Thu, Dec 20 2012, 5:24 pm

b from nj wrote:

What she's saying is more European, not "chareidi," IME.

WADR to Rabbi Horowitz and other American MO educators, they're not from FS's culture (in terms of either background or present location), and when it comes to chinuch not everything is universal.

↑ Culturedpearls ↓

Thu, Dec 20 2012, 5:35 pm

Looks like the discussion isn't getting anywhere. No one is being convinced of anything because many are bringing their own issues & pasts into the discussion.
I stand with FS completely. My home is no battleground, quite the opposite. I love my kids more than the whole world, I would & do sacrifice anything for them.
I have poured my lifeblood into their chinuch, I have fought school/yeshiva administrations , I have homeschooled a learning issues child, I have tried to develop each ones particular talents.
Is my love "conditional"? I'm not sure what that means. Is Hashems love for us conditional? When He turns his "face" away from us? Would I turn my face away from my child if he/she crosses a red line? Yes I would. Much like Tevye.
Would I welcome them back with open arms? Yes ofcourse.
As I tell my kids "I will always love YOU but that doesn't mean I will like what you do".
This is not about control. Our love for our children is not greater than Hashems love for us.

↑ Inspired ↓

Thu, Dec 20 2012, 5:43 pm

tb wrote:

unless I'm wrong, marrying out would fall into the category of arayos and also be yehoreig vi'al yaavor

I believe you are wrong.
The issur of intermarriage is not one of the arayos. The issur is not relations with a non jew. It is specifically marrying.
A child of a jew married to a non jew is not a mamzer like all the arayos (except niddah). Now niddah that is interesting because THAT IS yahareg ve'al yaavor so everyone advocating cutting of kids I hope you will be consistent and do so if your kids ever have premarital relations without first going to the mikvah. Or get married but don't keep THM.

Found this old thread you might want to read: http://www.imamother.com/forum.....hter=

Intermarriage is terrible. So is chillul shabbos bifarhesya. I don't think "cutting people off" is the answer. I have seen many people come back from both. People who I didn't cut off. People whose weddings I did not attend yet I spoke to them, told them I loved them and was supportive to them as people if not of their choices. I don't think those people were they cut of would have come back. What would they have been coming back to?

↑ greenfire ↓

Thu, Dec 20 2012, 5:52 pm

Culturedpearls wrote:

As I tell my kids "I will always love YOU but that doesn't mean I will like what you do".

you don't have to like them or what they do - you have to love them unconditionally - that means not throwing them out when they are not whom you expect them to be

Culturedpearls wrote:

This is not about control. Our love for our children is not greater than Hashems love for us.

quite the contrary ... hashem is expecting each & every one of us to learn to live here on earth to the best and kindest of ways and the only way to make a dwelling place for god is to be accepting of ALL his children

↑ b from nj ↓

Thu, Dec 20 2012, 6:10 pm

ora_43 wrote:

b from nj wrote:

Just to clarify, R. Horowitz is surely NOT a MO mechanech but he has definitely spoken on the topic of chinuch in the MO community in which I live. FS classifies herself as MO & I am just mentioning that her opinions are very different than the MO lecturers who I have heard speak on the topic of raising children.

I recall hearing one lecturer who mentioned that raising kids in today's day & age is MUCH different than when our parents were raising us & the methods that worked for us in the 70s & 80s or earlier is not necessarily going to work in today's day & age with our kids so I agree with you that the European method of child-rearing will generally not be so effective in the US & possibly not in Israel as well. We are living in different times & I think that raising children to be frum is more of a challenge now than ever before especially with the internet at many our children's fingertips.

↑ Culturedpearls ↓

Thu, Dec 20 2012, 6:31 pm

greenfire wrote:

Culturedpearls wrote:

As I tell my kids "I will always love YOU but that doesn't mean I will like what you do".

you don't have to like them or what they do - you have to love them unconditionally - that means not throwing them out when they are not whom you expect them to be

Culturedpearls wrote:

This is not about control. Our love for our children is not greater than Hashems love for us.

Accepting? Yes. But Hashem does turn away from us. Think inquisition, holocaust etc. Does HE stop loving us? No. Will HE always welcome us back? Yes.
Same with children, I will most definately turn away & sit shiva for a child who intermarries c"v. Would I welcome back the same child if he/she did teshuva? Yes, in a blink.
If my kid crosses any other of my red lines, I will not hold back my displeasure to put mildly. But I will forgive & love.
I am not my children's friend , I'm their parent first & take the responsibility of their chinuch very seriously.
Sefer Hachinuch advises that parents should spend 30min every day thinking about their children's chinuch. Believe me when I say that I spend hours every day thinking about each child & what they need & what difficulties they face.
My kids know our absolute devotion & they also know our red lines.

↑ b from nj ↓

Thu, Dec 20 2012, 6:46 pm

[quote="amother"]Just to clarify.
Modes of Dress do not dictate "MO" for Chareidim, there is a difference in Hashkofa as well.
I think this point is acknowledged by all no matter what side of the fence one is on.

REALLY?!! He is the principal of Yeshiva Darchei Noam which is considered to be a Yeshivish school in Monsey & not in ANY way one of the MO schools there. I think he is open-minded & a big activist defending the rights of s-xual abuse victims in the frum world & therefore some in the more right wing community (like those who supported Weberman & other pedophiles) would rather that he keep his opinions to himself.

Last edited by b from nj on Thu, Dec 20 2012, 9:12 pm; edited 1 time in total

↑ saw50st8 ↓

Thu, Dec 20 2012, 7:23 pm

freidasima wrote:

Somehow it reads to me of a great deal of individualism if you talk so much about your child's happiness being more important than your values. Why do you feel that way? Is it because you really don't feel that strongly about your values? Or are you so afraid that your children have been taught to be so selfish that if you make red lines they will cross them as they are so used to doing whatever they want even if they hurt their parents?

To me it sounds like Mars all this permissive and lazy parenting. Let your kids come to the table in sweats on shabbos. Why? Because they are comfortable? Obviously you don't mind it. Do you think that if your Rov of your kehilla would suddenly knock at the door at the middle of your shabbos meal, and come in and see you all in your pyjamas, would you be embarrassed? and if so, why do you do it?

Yes, I value my children as individuals and my mother valued me as an individual. I am one. I am not a robot. You need to value people for who they are individually, not who you want them to be.

I'm not afraid of my kids and my mother wasn't afraid of me. So why did she let me show up to the shabbos table in pajamas? Because the alternative was me not showing up to the shabbos table. And she believed in chinuch al pi darko. After she saw her methods weren't working and her pushing was going to be destructive to me and my religious observance not productive. My mother wasn't permissive in most ways, but she recognized when her rules needed to be altered.

One of my best friends had parents like you describe. 3 out of 8 kids are OTD. I saw that destruction first hand. 3 of them are way less religious (what I would call lite MO - barely keeping shabbos, kosher etc).

Do I want my kids to be happy? Yes. For many reasons - two big ones being that the miserable kids are the ones more likely to go OTD. And the most important is "Ivdu et hashem b'SIMCHA." If I raise kids who are technically observant and miserable because of it, that's a huge failure.

↑ b from nj ↓

Thu, Dec 20 2012, 7:26 pm

saw50st8 wrote:

freidasima wrote:

↑ saw50st8 ↓

Thu, Dec 20 2012, 7:35 pm

freidasima wrote:

Saw one can love a child in one's heart and cut them off because of their actions. There is absolutely no dichotomy between the abstract love that you feel for a particular person and the fact that in action you cut them out of your life because what they do and their way of life is totally against your values.

You may hate the sin and love the sinner but you don't have to have contact with that sinner. It's well known.

I also think that in a frum family where kids are taught from age zilch, verbally, continuously and consistantly, that one of the consequences of their marrying out will be to lose their family, those kids will think a million times even if they are put in that nisoyon, whether it is worth it to lose their entire family to have a relationship with Mr. or Mrs. Non-Jew.

It also seems to me that some of you are in truth very afraid of your children, of putting them to the test in anything and you would rather that the kids rule the household rather than face up to the fact that if you made something an issue, because these children are so used to permissive parenting, that they would fail the test and you would look like an idiot. Better not to test them, better not to face up to the fact that basically you are letting your children, their choices and their values rule your house. Because that is what it sounds like here in many issues.

What does abstract love do for someone? OK, so their parents says they love their child but can't even talk to them. Which means that they have cut been off from support and any practical form of love. So what does that mean or do for them? Absolutely nothing. I'm going to ask my intermarried aquaintence what she thinks of this.

The intermarried people I do know didn't go seek out a non-Jewish spouse - they were OTD and met someone and fell in love.

Lets be real - many people who go OTD end up with strained relationships with their families. So their choice is a family who already disproves of their lifestyle and is strained vs a spouse who will love them and share their daily life together. Tough choice huh?

I'm not afraid of my kids. I hope to recognize where to push and where to pull back. According to what they need, not according to what I want.

↑ saw50st8 ↓

Thu, Dec 20 2012, 7:39 pm

shalhevet wrote:

Which leads me to believe this is a prevalent attitude among frum Jews in America (or who recently lived there), since that is a large proportion of imamother members, and people I don't know in real life.

This is just a thought and I have no way of knowing, but it's interesting that there are much higher rates of intermarriage in the US than in any other society (maybe France has higher levels), especially considering that there is more kiruv, Jewish education etc. there than anywhere else apart from EY. (okay, I know it's still a drop in the ocean, but it's an even smaller drop in the ocean in England too.)

I don't think so. Most of my family and friends would absolutely cut off their child if they intermarried.

But like I referenced before, I personally saw that cutting off family did nothing. It didn't work. Everyone lost out for no reason.

↑ greenfire ↓

Thu, Dec 20 2012, 7:39 pm

Culturedpearls wrote:

Accepting? Yes. But Hashem does turn away from us. Think inquisition, holocaust etc. Does HE stop loving us? No. Will HE always welcome us back? Yes.

are you god to know what his intentions were ???

Culturedpearls wrote:

Would I welcome back the same child if he/she did teshuva? Yes, in a blink.

that makes it conditional

Culturedpearls wrote:

I am not my children's friend , I'm their parent first & take the responsibility of their chinuch very seriously.

nor should you be

Culturedpearls wrote:

Sefer Hachinuch advises that parents should spend 30min every day thinking about their children's chinuch. Believe me when I say that I spend hours every day thinking about each child & what they need & what difficulties they face.
My kids know our absolute devotion & they also know our red lines.

that is precisely what חנוך לנער על פי דרכו is all about

Culturedpearls wrote:

Same with children, I will most definately turn away & sit shiva for a child who intermarries c"v. Would I welcome back the same child if he/she did teshuva? Yes, in a blink.

If you KILL your OWN child like that they will NEVER come back ... not to YOU anyways
& I'm pretty sure they'd rather commit suicide

↑ saw50st8 ↓

Thu, Dec 20 2012, 7:42 pm

amother wrote:

Its all about you as a parent huh? Has nothing to do with your kids?

That's your real failure.

↑ Culturedpearls ↓

Thu, Dec 20 2012, 8:51 pm

greenfire wrote:

Culturedpearls wrote:

Accepting? Yes. But Hashem does turn away from us. Think inquisition, holocaust etc. Does HE stop loving us? No. Will HE always welcome us back? Yes.

are you god to know what his intentions were ???

Culturedpearls wrote:

Would I welcome back the same child if he/she did teshuva? Yes, in a blink.

that makes it conditional

Culturedpearls wrote:

I am not my children's friend , I'm their parent first & take the responsibility of their chinuch very seriously.

nor should you be

Culturedpearls wrote:

that is precisely what חנוך לנער על פי דרכו is all about

Culturedpearls wrote:

Same with children, I will most definately turn away & sit shiva for a child who intermarries c"v. Would I welcome back the same child if he/she did teshuva? Yes, in a blink.

If you KILL your OWN child like that they will NEVER come back ... not to YOU anyways
& I'm pretty sure they'd rather commit suicide

My kids would be killing themselves by c"v marrying out.
I'm not G-D but there's no denying that HIS face was turned away from HIS children.
Love is not conditional but acceptance is.
I do not accept any behavior which violates Torah. You do? Good for you.
My way works for us & our kids.
Again we are all on the same page in our house.
We worry about little things like chutzpa here. No war zone.
Again we're all going around in circles because everyone is bringing their issues & present situation to the table.