I choose my teens over my religion!

↑ marina ↓

Wed, Dec 19 2012, 12:49 pm

amother wrote:

Isramom8 wrote:

There's a lot of naivitee on this thread blaming challenged kids on their parents' bad parenting. If all the kids in a family are dysfunctional, I can see the possibility of an opening to begin to judge the parents as ineffective, although you might be wrong there too.

But if the siblings are functional and even excell socially, academically and as role models to their peers, it gets harder to assume that the parents have wrong hashkafos and don't know how to parent.

The rare people who get it are other parents in similar situations.

Just saying.

I couldn't agree with you more.
I think people should be less sanctimoneous about how special kids who are acting out must be lacking boundaries at home. It's really one of those cases when you can't judge till you've been there, and no two special needs are the same.
IME many, many special needs kids thrive with more love and flexibility and less strict boundaries.

My son has some vague special needs. If I enforced all my old ideals about parenting with him, he'd be on the streets. I forgive him again and again.
In our family the siblings all turned out b'h very functional and amazing. But even if they didn't, you can't judge the parenting of a special needs kids by the siblings. The very fact there's a special needs kid in the family affects them in so many ways. If the special needs kid is aggressive or often nasty, it's not easy for them at all.

You are taking away the wrong point. A special needs child acting out does not say anything about the parents. A lax parent who fails to discipline and set boundaries does say something about the child's behavior. Nothing to do with special needs- that applies to all kids.

And honestly? If your methods work for you, you don't need anyone's advice. Keep doing what you're doing.

↑ Ruchel ↓

Wed, Dec 19 2012, 1:43 pm

imasinger wrote:

Isramom8 wrote:

Since this thread has taken on a tangent, I'm going to vent. This happened to me. A shadchanit said that a family wanted to understand why my challenged child was in the school the child is in. I explained about the challenges. The shadchanit said, in a low, "you can level with me" tone, "Is your child off the derech?" Um, no! Were you listening?

Anyway, B"H, our two children who have ever been in shidduchim have merited the most amazing shidduchim, with super-awesome parents. So there is hope. Very Happy

UN believable. What did she think you would say? "Yes, I'm going to offer my SN kid as a korban and let him get kicked out of "normal" schools just so he can look good on paper for my other kids to get shidduchim."

B"H you have proven that attitude wrong twice.

Yup, it's nuts.
Believe it or not, in some worlds people will not even ask about siblings, and may not even care what school THE PERSON went to, as long as they are fine with how the person is...

I think all cultures have things that will be very shameful for the parents if the teen does it.

grin ↓

Wed, Dec 19 2012, 2:12 pm

chani8 wrote:

Your last post, FS, is getting closer to what I mean. If something bothers you, then you are going to be demanding and inflexible. And if it doesn't really bother you, then what's there to talk about, right? Well, that's my point (the point of this thread). To state, I am not going to let my religious beliefs get in the way of my relationship with my kids. No matter what they do against my religious beliefs, I won't let that bother me anymore. Because, it was ruining my relationship with them. They are not b'dakfa trying to hurt me, so why be hurt? They are not b'dafka trying to make me uncomfortable, so why be uncomfortable?

you do have to choose your battles, but I'm sure that you wouldn't accept what they may do across the board - would you be as comfortable with them eating treif food inside your home - let's say a cold cheeseburger on your dish [which according to strict halacha is acceptable] - as you are with a low nickeline?

we are all interested in raising children who are emotionally healthy as well as physically - but shouldn't we, as frum mothers, be interested in their spiritual welfare as well?

Tablepoetry ↓

Wed, Dec 19 2012, 2:23 pm

chani8 wrote:

Chani, I agree with you. Although none of my teens are 'off the derech' (at least not by my definition), I've experienced this transformation in other areas. With my older children certain things were very important to me - for example, that they be very studious. You can say, why shouldn't a kid just study a few hrs a night, to keep mom happy? What's so difficult? He's got brains, what's the big deal.
But kids want to make their own decisions and lead their own lives, even before they hit 18. One kid doesn't want to study, another may not want to go to minyan, a third might want to wear mini-skirts.

While I think it's important a parent takes a stance and explains why xyz is a big deal for them, I also think it's crucial to give your teen space at some point. Space to choose what to do, even in your own home - with limits, of course, but to keep those limits to things that really bother you.

I also don't agree with the mentality that it's MY home and you're a temporary guest here, kid, so just conform to MY rules. This is a family home, and while we as parents are the leaders, I do everything possible, yes, to ensure my kids feel comfortable here. Not ashamed of it at all. And not American, btw.

↑ shalhevet ↓

Wed, Dec 19 2012, 2:30 pm

chani8 wrote:

FS, I really don't see why it is a problem to me, if my teen (aka young adult) would dress inappropriately at a social function. Personally, I don't take their lack of social skills, or their rejection of societal norms, as a reflection on me. If they want to pooh pooh on their community, even, by wearing shorts to a wedding, then how is that my problem? Why should I be hurt by it? Why should I get involved in any way? IMO, your way is buying into social pressure and using 'manners' (some use halacha) to control the teen.

As far as my teens go, I don't feel like you understood my post.

I haven't asked my son why he is doing what he is doing, because I don't want to know why. I have no desire to challenge him. I am not likely to influence him at this stage in his life. Right now, he is likely trying out being traditional. I'm not interested in convincing him that he is wrong. While I believe my way is best for me, maybe being traditional is best for him. However, I could indeed manipulate my son to get him to wear a kippah in my home. I do have power over him. He loves and respects me, and wants a good relationship. I could exploit that to get him to wear a kippah. But, what would I have accomplished? Why should I care if he wears a kippah, for me, when he doesn't believe in it????

As far as my DD, I used to demand she change before she went out, or if it really bugged me, even when she was in my home. Of course I think I am 100% correct. But who cares. So what if she is wrong. What if she is breaking halacha??? Do I fight with her, destroy our relationship, irritate and annoy and frustrate her? What am I accomplishing toward my long term goal??? You know what my long term goal is? To have a good loving relationship with my DD. No matter her neckline. And if my harping on her about anything, neclines or doing the dishes, is going to cause he to turn away from me, hate me, then forget it. And just FTR, when I stopped caring about her necklines, she hasn't improved them, but she has started doing the dishes (without being asked) every time she's home. And I get a kiss and hug, too.

I really am Scratching Head

. Why do you think that insisting on house rules means fighting and screaming? You mentioned this in an earlier post - how you used to fight and argue with your children when they didn't conform with halacha. Don't you think there is a middle ground? To ask for something respectfully? As FS wrote, with us everyone comes to the Shabbos table fully dressed (up). If someone doesn't no one fights with them. After a few times you don't even need to mention it.

And mashiach is on his way, because I agree with marina's posts. Tongue Out

And I also find it amusing how some posters are sure they know about all the other posters' children, just because they themselves like to share info about their kids.

BTW, Isramom, why do you keep discussing special needs children here? You should start a new thread about whether or not special needs children should be disciplined/ are in danger of going OTD etc. because that is not what this thread is (was) about. Apart from the fact that special needs encompasses such a wide range of things which may or may not impact chinuch.

↑ saw50st8 ↓

Wed, Dec 19 2012, 2:31 pm

freidasima wrote:

1) For those who say they want their children to be comfortable in their home...if that means that YOU have to be uncomfortable and unhappy for your children to be comfortable, then what message are you giving your children? That they can do what they want, even if it hurts mommy a lot, because mommy wants them to be happy? Isn't that a kind of passive abuse of parents if a child knows that they are making a parent unhappy but continue to do it? Don't you think it teaches children a really bad message that states that in any situation no matter what THEIR comfort is more important than anything else? Is that the message you want to teach your kids? Don't you feel that you setting them up for future situations where they will act like this with people and get smacked across the face and not treated with kid gloves as you are doing, because the world is not about to treat them with kid gloves?

And if not..then maybe what your kids are doing really ISNT so uncomfortable for you at all...which is course if not what we are talking about. We aren't discussing arbitrary rules that a parent makes but something that they truly believe in.

2) Now would you feel that way about guests? After all, we want guests to feel comfortable at our home don't we? How far would we go allowing them to do something that we hate? Would we allow them to change a baby with a full diaper in the middle of the dining table with the food there because it's convenient for them and just doesn't bother them (but bothers you and other people?) Would we allow them to play loud music until midnight because they love loud music but we want to sleep however we want them to feel comfortable? Wouldn't we be thrilled when such guests finally leave and would never want them back? And if we say that we would have them back...well aren't we letting ourselves be abused then?

Saw you talk about "decorum". Do you feel that coming to the table in sweat pants or pyjamas on shabbos is only "decorum"? Maybe it's much more than that, maybe it's a whole way of life and belief that includes a certain way of dress to honor the shabbos queen. And maybe she believed that someone coming to the table in sweats is really spitting in the shabbos queen's face. That isn't decorum. It is menchlichkeit for a frum Jewish way of life that makes shabbos different than any other day and respects the kedusha of that day.

That's very different than "decorum". And yes, respecting the kedusha of shabbos trumps your comfort. The same way that my husband, in the throes of a serious stomach attack, asked me to give him a clean white shirt which he buttoned over his pyjama T shirt in order to come to the table on Friday night from bed to wash, make kiddush, eat the minimum challah to be yotzei, bench and go back to bed to writhe in pain. It was just him and me, he could have skpped it, he could have come to the table in the T shirt he had been sweating in in bed in pain, and even I was shocked. But as he said, he can't greet shabbos hamalka in a sweaty T shirt. It was SHABBOS.

The kids have seen him do this once or twice when he was very sick and they were around. It makes an impression. And if they do it, it isn't because of guilt or rules, but because of example. Most normal kids want to please their parents. If they are going through the stage where they don't, then one has to remind them gently of certain rules.

I thought this post wasn't about what a parent has control over, but about what a parent should exert their control over. I never said parents aren't allowed to enforce rules on their teens, but then you end up with my friends who severely distanced themselves from their parents because everything was about the parents and their rules. My children live in the home and have to feel comfortable too!

Why should it bother my mother if I am wearing something comfortable? Yes, its not what she wants me to wear, but at the end of a long week, it was what I wanted to wear. I could still do plenty of things to honor shabbos, even if I wasn't dressed in fancy clothing or wearing shoes. If my mother had pushed me too hard, I just wouldn't have gone to the shabbos table and who would have benefited from that? My family used to spend many hours bonding and talking at the Shabbos table. It was our chance to fully catch up after a long week, debate all sorts of topics and have a nice time. Everybody would lose. By the time I was a teenager, I knew I prefered comfort over style (and still do). Just because a parent truly believes in something, doesn't mean a child has to, especially once they are a teenager!

Now guests are a bit different as they are optional. I don't view my guests as optional. But I do allow my parents, in-laws and certain close friends and relatives do things I would prefer they don't in the interest of maintaining our relationship, if I know its important to them in my own home. I won't allow guests to violate things that cause halachic problems for me (like I wouldn't let a guest heat up a pot of soup on the belch for Shabbos lunch for everyone!) but I also wouldn't restrict them from using my microwave for soemthing they want to eat. That's their own personal cheshbon. I woudln't allow pork on my plate either.

Yes, clothing is often decorum. My mother wasn't upset about the halachic issue of pants (thats not an issue in my family), it was about being at the shabbos table in non-formal clothing. It was a decorum issue, not a halachic issue. Good for your husband for doing his avoda through a button down shirt, but I prefer other ways to do avodas hashem.

↑ chani8 ↓

Wed, Dec 19 2012, 2:35 pm

grin wrote:

chani8 wrote:

Gee, grin, I'm just getting over necklines and kippas, please Hashem don't test me with cheeseburgers!! Really, don't think this is easy.I'm not so 'comfortable'. I'm struggling. That is why I started this thread.

I have seen positive results from this big change in my attitude, though. The atmosphere in the home has changed so much. DH is buying into my new shita, too, and even he is getting along better with the kids. We've learned the hard way, you cannot control them. Stop trying to. Stop caring so much that you take it all personally. Give these prickly caterpillars room to blossom into butterflies.

What you call 'spiritual welfare', I think is really code for 'religious observance'. But if you really mean 'spiritual welfare', then yes, I do believe it is important to be interested. But being interested is a whole lot different than trying to control or even manipulate it.

↑ freidasima ↓

Wed, Dec 19 2012, 2:50 pm

So I don't get something.
If X doesn't bother you, or doesn't bother you enough to want to set limits on it, why are you even writing about it? Meaning one who states declaratively that they CHOOSE their children over their religion is either:

1) hurting greatly about religion but willing to do anything to assuage their children so that they don't lose them (but what exactly have they gained if their kids spit on their parents religious observance enough to flaunt their disrespect of its rules in their parents face?)

or

2) Didn't really make a choice because what they call "their religion" wasn't important enough for them to make a stand over.

So if it is the first then they are shmattes to their kids - great parenting folks, I (do not) pat you on the back....and in the second there isn't an issue in the first place so what are they writing about?

Saw you are describing a situation with the dress business that obviously didn't bother your mother enough to make a stand on it. Would she have acted that way if you said that you wanted to bring something into the house without a hechsher that was borderline treif and eat it on her plates? Would she have made a stand on it?

It all boils down to what is described as the concept of permissive parenting where parents think of children as equals or almost equals, with an equal vote and they are willing to compromise their beliefs, their comfort, their standards etc. and be uncomfortable, unhappy, and even miserable so that their children will be happy. But...we aren't talking about a parent giving up food so that a child will eat and live. We are talking about a parent willing to turn her back on everything she believes in in order to placate a volatile teenager who might change their mind about the issue in the next week!

And it all boils down to what one thinks that parenting is. I belong to a very distinctive school of thought and parenting which believes that parents teach. Their whole lives. And guide. At all ages. Children have to always have the derekh eretz to listen. At a certain age when they aren't living under their parents' roof, they have no chiyuv to follow, but they always have a chiyuv to be respectful and listen to their parents and give them dignity and respect.

Parents have no chiyuv to honor or respect their children. They have to educate them. Hopefully they love them. Hopefully they pass on their values. But educating also means teaching children not to spit on a parent's values in that parent's face.

I also firmly believe that a family is not a democracy and it has a decision maker - that is the parental unit. As small children, they have no choice but to toe the line. As older children they can leave as soon as they can support themselves or as soon as their parents are willing to support them if they leave. For some it is very good for kids to get out at 17 or 18, for others not. As long as you are being financially supported by someone you have to toe the line. Hopefully parents are smart enough not to make too many lines to toe. But if you truly believe in something you have the right in the home that you run, that you support, that you pay for, to make it a rule that people have to follow. And if they don't like it, tough noogies. Life isn't fair. Kids grow up and leave and then they can do what they want. If they don't understand the concept of honoring one's parents and respecting their values while under their roof, if they need the instant gratification of NOW to do exactly what they want, when they want, how they want disregarding anyone else especially parents, they are spoiled brats. Selfish spoiled brats.

And do parents really think that they will have a wonderful adult relationship with their children if they let those children trample values which the parents hold dear and truly important, to that parent's face when they are teens? Don't kid yourself. A bratty teen who is never given boundaries often turns out to be a selfish, immature and bratty adult. You have been warned.

↑ grin ↓

Wed, Dec 19 2012, 2:55 pm

chani8 wrote:

grin wrote:

chani8 wrote:

by jove, I think she's got it! Applause

one day I finally understood that once they're teens, it's their decision to make. ftr, my girls don't dress as I do but they all know that they are loved and accepted for who they are irregardless. and yes, we discuss frumkeit instead of sermonizing because I agree that it won't stick in today's world if it doesn't' come from the heart. [oh, and btw I also confide in them that I don't agree with everything the school demands - but they're in their rights to demand it of their students].

↑ sneakermom ↓

Wed, Dec 19 2012, 3:12 pm

Chani8 I think the message you are trying to give your kids is that you love them unconditionally because they are a tzelem elokim. You might not love their choices. And you might wish they would do things more aligned with your values. But you are giving them the emotional space and respect to figure it out themselves.

And hopefully, instead of religion becoming a power struggle, they might be able to come to accept it by themselves and discover their place in it in a healthy way.

I would assume that after having gone from one religious extreme to another...they would become confused as to what is really the right way or the truth so to speak.

As a mother though, I would pray that they find their way. I would try what I can to exert some influence over them because while they are not young kids anymore they are young adults and still easily influenced. So maybe if they liked singing by the shabbos table I would try to make that happen, or if they are intellectual I would try to bring up some profound discussions on the parshah.

The point would be not to be directly teaching them, but indirectly creating an environment. You show respect by not bossing, but you are not afraid to run your house with a spirit of holiness either.

My father used to tell me this story about a friend of his, that as a teenager he was very into rock music. His poor ultra frum, European, holocaust survivor father was aghast. Yet he also wanted his son to learn Torah. So when he would call his son to learn the son would say, "Later I'm busy listening to this song on the radio". So the father said, "No problem, bring the radio here and we will learn". And they learned while the rock music blared in the background. Today that boy is a grown man, very frum and has married off a few kids already.

The chochma of the story is that the father did not fight his son on a losing battle. But he still found a way to influence him as well.

↑ freidasima ↓

Wed, Dec 19 2012, 3:25 pm

Beautiful story sneakermom. But the additional point is that the survivor-father may not have liked rock music, however he didn't see it as going against his core values, it was just a nuisance.

And torah was his core value. Therefore he was willing to compromise on something that was not important to him but rather a nuisance, in order to get in the torah learning.

That would be like a family feeling that they were against sports for boys as a waste of time but they had a boy with a lot of energy and knew he had to let it out in order to sit and learn well. So they put up a basketball hoop and allowed him to go out and throw a half hour of baskets before he sat down to learn his daf. They didnt see sports as being a slap in their face, or against their values, but just a nuisance, and they were willing to close a blind eye to it in order to have him do the ikkar.

That is not like letting a kid go to the shabbos table dressed in what a parent thinks is a totally improper way just to get them to sit at a shabbos table, because the improper dress is a spit in the face to shabbos. So how exactly is such a child keeping shabbos (the parents ikkar) if the way they got that kid to the table was to allow him "not" to keep part of shabbos (which for this parent is a certain way of dress)?

↑ ora_43 ↓

Wed, Dec 19 2012, 3:44 pm

chani8 wrote:

Just FTR, my DD does not show her cleavage, B"H. But her idea of a kosher neckline is different than mine. So in the past, she would respond to my comment about her neckline with, "This is what my Rav allows." To which I would have said something like,"I don't care what he says, he's wrong and what does he know about necklines? It's too low and doesn't look nice. You know what is tznius." To which she would say, "No, I don't know what's right anymore. My Rav allows me to wear this. What do you want from me?" And I would say, "I bet if we went to him and showed him your neckline, he'd agree it was not what he meant. And if he does think it's ok, I'll set him straight. It is the women who determine what is tznius! We are Daas Yehudis!"

That's totally different from what FS, shalhevet, etc, are saying.

Nobody is saying parents should get hysterical, or tell their adolescent kids that their teachers are wrong and the way they want to live is wrong.

But if after your dd said, "This is what my rav allows," you had said, "I respect that, but I'm not comfortable with it in the home. You know that Abba holds by (whoever) and he'd feel better if you stick to your other shirts when you're here" - that would be something else.

FTR it's quite possible I would think your dd's shirts are fine. I'm not arguing that, just the idea that parents' only options are to 1. stop caring what their kids do unless it affects them directly or 2. drive their kids away. My parents had expectations of me when I was a teen, and I don't think it broadcast a lack of love on their part - if anything, it was the opposite.

Of course, that only works if the expectations stem from a real feeling on the parent's part, and a real understanding of the child, and aren't (semi-)arbitrary.

(eta - I don't think either approach - setting clear expectations re: "respectful" behavior or deciding not to set expectations - is the one single right approach. I think it's cultural, and the "right" path varies.)

Last edited by ora_43 on Wed, Dec 19 2012, 3:50 pm; edited 1 time in total