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Besiyata Dishmaya
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 Sun, May 20 2012, 3:52 pm
| QUEENY wrote: | | What could this girl possibly have to gain from making a false accusation? She is the one suffering more than him. She is being villified, her family too...even her boyfriend. So unless it truly happened why would she want to put herself and her family through this. Also, acc. to the ADKAN website, it seems there are more victems out there. Think about it. a man with no license put in charge of at risk girls..no one gives thought to yichud or what other problems that could come out of this..there is something seriously wrong with this. |
One of the things I heard was that she's doing this to get back at her father who set up a camera and watched what she and her boy friend were doing.
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smilingmom
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Sun, May 20 2012, 4:00 pm
| Besiyata Dishmaya wrote: |
So you're saying that every person accused is guilty. Shame on you! There were gedolei yisroel throughout generations who were accused of the same (I think the Sdeh Chemed was one of them, not sure) and then found to be innocent. I personally know of "several" cases who were accused and then found to be innocent. |
I challenge you name one frum person who was "found innocent" after being accused in a non-marital (divorce) setting. You can PM me and if You can verify it, I will buy you dinner At any restaurant in NYC.
To clarify, one - the accusation cannot have been part of a divorce litigation.
Two- a finding of 'not guilty' or pleading to a lesser crime is not the same as saying that a person is innocent.
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QUEENY
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Sun, May 20 2012, 4:07 pm
| Besiyata Dishmaya wrote: | | QUEENY wrote: | | What could this girl possibly have to gain from making a false accusation? She is the one suffering more than him. She is being villified, her family too...even her boyfriend. So unless it truly happened why would she want to put herself and her family through this. Also, acc. to the ADKAN website, it seems there are more victems out there. Think about it. a man with no license put in charge of at risk girls..no one gives thought to yichud or what other problems that could come out of this..there is something seriously wrong with this. |
One of the things I heard was that she's doing this to get back at her father who set up a camera and watched what she and her boy friend were doing. |
SO she would ruin her life, her boyfriends life by making these accusations...she would go through a police investigation, questioning about very private things....to get back at her father.
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Besiyata Dishmaya
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Sun, May 20 2012, 4:10 pm
| smilingmom wrote: | | Besiyata Dishmaya wrote: |
So you're saying that every person accused is guilty. Shame on you! There were gedolei yisroel throughout generations who were accused of the same (I think the Sdeh Chemed was one of them, not sure) and then found to be innocent. I personally know of "several" cases who were accused and then found to be innocent. |
I challenge you name one frum person who was "found innocent" after being accused in a non-marital (divorce) setting. You can PM me and if You can verify it, I will buy you dinner At any restaurant in NYC.
To clarify, one - the accusation cannot have been part of a divorce litigation.
Two- a finding of 'not guilty' or pleading to a lesser crime is not the same as saying that a person is innocent. |
I was referring to men being accused of having molested girls. I know 4 people who were innocent.
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Sherri
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Sun, May 20 2012, 4:12 pm
| smilingmom wrote: | | Besiyata Dishmaya wrote: |
So you're saying that every person accused is guilty. Shame on you! There were gedolei yisroel throughout generations who were accused of the same (I think the Sdeh Chemed was one of them, not sure) and then found to be innocent. I personally know of "several" cases who were accused and then found to be innocent. |
I challenge you name one frum person who was "found innocent" after being accused in a non-marital (divorce) setting. You can PM me and if You can verify it, I will buy you dinner At any restaurant in NYC.
To clarify, one - the accusation cannot have been part of a divorce litigation.
Two- a finding of 'not guilty' or pleading to a lesser crime is not the same as saying that a person is innocent. | Is there any way to prove a person is innocent of something?
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Besiyata Dishmaya
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Sun, May 20 2012, 4:13 pm
| QUEENY wrote: | | Besiyata Dishmaya wrote: | | QUEENY wrote: | | What could this girl possibly have to gain from making a false accusation? She is the one suffering more than him. She is being villified, her family too...even her boyfriend. So unless it truly happened why would she want to put herself and her family through this. Also, acc. to the ADKAN website, it seems there are more victems out there. Think about it. a man with no license put in charge of at risk girls..no one gives thought to yichud or what other problems that could come out of this..there is something seriously wrong with this. |
One of the things I heard was that she's doing this to get back at her father who set up a camera and watched what she and her boy friend were doing. |
SO she would ruin her life, her boyfriends life by making these accusations...she would go through a police investigation, questioning about very private things....to get back at her father. |
Her life is anyhow ruined by the film captured.
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MaBelleVie
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Sun, May 20 2012, 4:15 pm
| Besiyata Dishmaya wrote: | | smilingmom wrote: | | Besiyata Dishmaya wrote: |
So you're saying that every person accused is guilty. Shame on you! There were gedolei yisroel throughout generations who were accused of the same (I think the Sdeh Chemed was one of them, not sure) and then found to be innocent. I personally know of "several" cases who were accused and then found to be innocent. |
I challenge you name one frum person who was "found innocent" after being accused in a non-marital (divorce) setting. You can PM me and if You can verify it, I will buy you dinner At any restaurant in NYC.
To clarify, one - the accusation cannot have been part of a divorce litigation.
Two- a finding of 'not guilty' or pleading to a lesser crime is not the same as saying that a person is innocent. |
I was referring to men being accused of having molested girls. I know 4 people who were innocent. |
4??? Where do you live? That is insane. Do people do this for the fun of it in your community?
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StrawberrySmoothie
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Sun, May 20 2012, 4:18 pm
| MaBelleVie wrote: | | Besiyata Dishmaya wrote: | | smilingmom wrote: | | Besiyata Dishmaya wrote: |
So you're saying that every person accused is guilty. Shame on you! There were gedolei yisroel throughout generations who were accused of the same (I think the Sdeh Chemed was one of them, not sure) and then found to be innocent. I personally know of "several" cases who were accused and then found to be innocent. |
I challenge you name one frum person who was "found innocent" after being accused in a non-marital (divorce) setting. You can PM me and if You can verify it, I will buy you dinner At any restaurant in NYC.
To clarify, one - the accusation cannot have been part of a divorce litigation.
Two- a finding of 'not guilty' or pleading to a lesser crime is not the same as saying that a person is innocent. |
I was referring to men being accused of having molested girls. I know 4 people who were innocent. |
4??? Where do you live? That is insane. Do people do this for the fun of it in your community? |
Sounds like people molest for fun over there cuz hey why not they don't get caught anyways!
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Besiyata Dishmaya
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Sun, May 20 2012, 4:19 pm
| Sherri wrote: | | smilingmom wrote: | | Besiyata Dishmaya wrote: |
So you're saying that every person accused is guilty. Shame on you! There were gedolei yisroel throughout generations who were accused of the same (I think the Sdeh Chemed was one of them, not sure) and then found to be innocent. I personally know of "several" cases who were accused and then found to be innocent. |
I challenge you name one frum person who was "found innocent" after being accused in a non-marital (divorce) setting. You can PM me and if You can verify it, I will buy you dinner At any restaurant in NYC.
To clarify, one - the accusation cannot have been part of a divorce litigation.
Two- a finding of 'not guilty' or pleading to a lesser crime is not the same as saying that a person is innocent. | Is there any way to prove a person is innocent of something? |
If there's a way to prove guilt, there's a way to prove innocence.
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happybeingamom
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Sun, May 20 2012, 4:28 pm
She didn't report it was done by a mandated reporter from what I understand.
How this would be getting back at her father beats me!
There will be a trial we don't have to b'shmutz either side.
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marina
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Sun, May 20 2012, 4:29 pm
| Quote: | | If you'd read what I wrote you'd see that I did not take sides but just made you aware that although that girl accused him, ACCORDING TO TORAH THIS PERSON WOULD NOT BE INDICTED because of lack of evidence. You don't like this halachah, go fight it out with the Torah, go fight it out with Hashem. |
I find this post fascinating.
Ok, so what is the alternative, BD? Should we only arrest men who rape little girls in the presence of two witnesses and after a warning? Also, if a frum man is found to have a chopped up little boy in his freezer, but he didn't kill him in the presence of two witnesses, should we also let him go free?
And why should we arrest rapists? So the little girls can be given a choice of whether to marry them or not? So that the rapists will have to pay a fine? What if the rapists are rich? I guess they can go along their merry raping way.
I think halacha, as it was applied during the time of the sanhedrin, has nothing to do with this century's legal requirements.
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QUEENY
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Sun, May 20 2012, 4:31 pm
| Besiyata Dishmaya wrote: | | QUEENY wrote: | | Besiyata Dishmaya wrote: | | QUEENY wrote: | | What could this girl possibly have to gain from making a false accusation? She is the one suffering more than him. She is being villified, her family too...even her boyfriend. So unless it truly happened why would she want to put herself and her family through this. Also, acc. to the ADKAN website, it seems there are more victems out there. Think about it. a man with no license put in charge of at risk girls..no one gives thought to yichud or what other problems that could come out of this..there is something seriously wrong with this. |
One of the things I heard was that she's doing this to get back at her father who set up a camera and watched what she and her boy friend were doing. |
SO she would ruin her life, her boyfriends life by making these accusations...she would go through a police investigation, questioning about very private things....to get back at her father. |
Her life is anyhow ruined by the film captured. |
well then her father sounds like a sick dude if that is true...it would not ruin her life unless her father publicized it and he would have to be crazy. You seem to be ignoring my comments concerning...WHy the heck would they put a MAN in charge of at risk kids...alone with young girls..it does not make sense why he would put himself in a vulnerable position unless he NEEDED the privacy.
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Besiyata Dishmaya
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Sun, May 20 2012, 4:31 pm
| marina wrote: | | Quote: | | If you'd read what I wrote you'd see that I did not take sides but just made you aware that although that girl accused him, ACCORDING TO TORAH THIS PERSON WOULD NOT BE INDICTED because of lack of evidence. You don't like this halachah, go fight it out with the Torah, go fight it out with Hashem. |
I find this post fascinating.
Ok, so what is the alternative, BD? Should we only arrest men who rape little girls in the presence of two witnesses and after a warning? Also, if a frum man is found to have a chopped up little boy in his freezer, but he didn't kill him in the presence of two witnesses, should we also let him go free?
And why should we arrest rapists? So the little girls can be given a choice of whether to marry them or not? So that the rapists will have to pay a fine? What if the rapists are rich? I guess they can go along their merry raping way.
I think halacha, as it was applied during the time of the sanhedrin, has nothing to do with this century's legal requirements. |
Ask your LOR.
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Besiyata Dishmaya
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Sun, May 20 2012, 4:33 pm
| QUEENY wrote: | | Besiyata Dishmaya wrote: | | QUEENY wrote: | | Besiyata Dishmaya wrote: | | QUEENY wrote: | | What could this girl possibly have to gain from making a false accusation? She is the one suffering more than him. She is being villified, her family too...even her boyfriend. So unless it truly happened why would she want to put herself and her family through this. Also, acc. to the ADKAN website, it seems there are more victems out there. Think about it. a man with no license put in charge of at risk girls..no one gives thought to yichud or what other problems that could come out of this..there is something seriously wrong with this. |
One of the things I heard was that she's doing this to get back at her father who set up a camera and watched what she and her boy friend were doing. |
SO she would ruin her life, her boyfriends life by making these accusations...she would go through a police investigation, questioning about very private things....to get back at her father. |
Her life is anyhow ruined by the film captured. |
well then her father sounds like a sick dude if that is true...it would not ruin her life unless her father publicized it and he would have to be crazy. You seem to be ignoring my comments concerning...WHy the heck would they put a MAN in charge of at risk kids...alone with young girls..it does not make sense why he would put himself in a vulnerable position unless he NEEDED the privacy. |
Ask a Willi.
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happybeingamom
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Sun, May 20 2012, 4:34 pm
| marina wrote: | | Quote: | | If you'd read what I wrote you'd see that I did not take sides but just made you aware that although that girl accused him, ACCORDING TO TORAH THIS PERSON WOULD NOT BE INDICTED because of lack of evidence. You don't like this halachah, go fight it out with the Torah, go fight it out with Hashem. |
I find this post fascinating.
Ok, so what is the alternative, BD? Should we only arrest men who rape little girls in the presence of two witnesses and after a warning? Also, if a frum man is found to have a chopped up little boy in his freezer, but he didn't kill him in the presence of two witnesses, should we also let him go free?
And why should we arrest rapists? So the little girls can be given a choice of whether to marry them or not? So that the rapists will have to pay a fine? What if the rapists are rich? I guess they can go along their merry raping way.
I think halacha, as it was applied during the time of the sanhedrin, has nothing to do with this century's legal requirements. |
As far as I know there were ways to take care of a Rodef and they did not go scott free.
I know this is before Sanhedrins time but Shimon and Levi took care of rapists.
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marina
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Sun, May 20 2012, 4:37 pm
| Besiyata Dishmaya wrote: | | marina wrote: | | Quote: | | If you'd read what I wrote you'd see that I did not take sides but just made you aware that although that girl accused him, ACCORDING TO TORAH THIS PERSON WOULD NOT BE INDICTED because of lack of evidence. You don't like this halachah, go fight it out with the Torah, go fight it out with Hashem. |
I find this post fascinating.
Ok, so what is the alternative, BD? Should we only arrest men who rape little girls in the presence of two witnesses and after a warning? Also, if a frum man is found to have a chopped up little boy in his freezer, but he didn't kill him in the presence of two witnesses, should we also let him go free?
And why should we arrest rapists? So the little girls can be given a choice of whether to marry them or not? So that the rapists will have to pay a fine? What if the rapists are rich? I guess they can go along their merry raping way.
I think halacha, as it was applied during the time of the sanhedrin, has nothing to do with this century's legal requirements. |
Ask your LOR. |
I did. She said you were unwell and refuah shleima to you.
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marina
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Sun, May 20 2012, 4:39 pm
| happybeingamom wrote: | | marina wrote: | | Quote: | | If you'd read what I wrote you'd see that I did not take sides but just made you aware that although that girl accused him, ACCORDING TO TORAH THIS PERSON WOULD NOT BE INDICTED because of lack of evidence. You don't like this halachah, go fight it out with the Torah, go fight it out with Hashem. |
I find this post fascinating.
Ok, so what is the alternative, BD? Should we only arrest men who rape little girls in the presence of two witnesses and after a warning? Also, if a frum man is found to have a chopped up little boy in his freezer, but he didn't kill him in the presence of two witnesses, should we also let him go free?
And why should we arrest rapists? So the little girls can be given a choice of whether to marry them or not? So that the rapists will have to pay a fine? What if the rapists are rich? I guess they can go along their merry raping way.
I think halacha, as it was applied during the time of the sanhedrin, has nothing to do with this century's legal requirements. |
As far as I know there were ways to take care of a Rodef and they did not go scott free.
I know this is before Sanhedrins time but Shimon and Levi took care of rapists. |
If we go Shimon and Levi's way, to kill a whole city for one rapist, that's pretty much the end of civilization. Or New York, at least.
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Sherri
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Sun, May 20 2012, 4:44 pm
| Besiyata Dishmaya wrote: | | Sherri wrote: | | smilingmom wrote: | | Besiyata Dishmaya wrote: |
So you're saying that every person accused is guilty. Shame on you! There were gedolei yisroel throughout generations who were accused of the same (I think the Sdeh Chemed was one of them, not sure) and then found to be innocent. I personally know of "several" cases who were accused and then found to be innocent. |
I challenge you name one frum person who was "found innocent" after being accused in a non-marital (divorce) setting. You can PM me and if You can verify it, I will buy you dinner At any restaurant in NYC.
To clarify, one - the accusation cannot have been part of a divorce litigation.
Two- a finding of 'not guilty' or pleading to a lesser crime is not the same as saying that a person is innocent. | Is there any way to prove a person is innocent of something? |
If there's a way to prove guilt, there's a way to prove innocence. | Not really. How can you *prove* that someone did *not* do something?
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happybeingamom
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Sun, May 20 2012, 4:49 pm
| marina wrote: | | happybeingamom wrote: | | marina wrote: | | Quote: | | If you'd read what I wrote you'd see that I did not take sides but just made you aware that although that girl accused him, ACCORDING TO TORAH THIS PERSON WOULD NOT BE INDICTED because of lack of evidence. You don't like this halachah, go fight it out with the Torah, go fight it out with Hashem. |
I find this post fascinating.
Ok, so what is the alternative, BD? Should we only arrest men who rape little girls in the presence of two witnesses and after a warning? Also, if a frum man is found to have a chopped up little boy in his freezer, but he didn't kill him in the presence of two witnesses, should we also let him go free?
And why should we arrest rapists? So the little girls can be given a choice of whether to marry them or not? So that the rapists will have to pay a fine? What if the rapists are rich? I guess they can go along their merry raping way.
I think halacha, as it was applied during the time of the sanhedrin, has nothing to do with this century's legal requirements. |
As far as I know there were ways to take care of a Rodef and they did not go scott free.
I know this is before Sanhedrins time but Shimon and Levi took care of rapists. |
If we go Shimon and Levi's way, to kill a whole city for one rapist, that's pretty much the end of civilization. Or New York, at least. |
I guess then we will use the jury system then.
Bottom line we don't use beis din today for criminal acts so it makes no difference what beis din would do.
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