Nechemya Weberman charged with abusing 12 yr old girl

↑ sequoia ↓

Fri, May 18 2012, 1:58 am

"Worldly" girls also get raped.

Rape is never the victim's fault.

Rape is never okay.

Pressuring underage children into s-xual acts is never okay.

I can't believe this needs to be said. I can't believe some posters are trotting out the old canard that only "naive, sheltered good girls" deserve our sympathy if they are s-xually abused.

↑ ora_43 ↓

Fri, May 18 2012, 2:54 am

Mama Bear's not saying that a "worldly" girl can't be a victim. She's just saying that a girl's knowledge of s-x acts can only be taken as proof of anything if there's reason to believe she wouldn't have heard of such things otherwise.

I don't think it's good to be talking about that whole aspect here, but whatever. Just explaining.

To clarify my earlier comments - I'm not pro fundraising for this guy! again! I'm trying to be dan l'chaf zchut on the people who know him as a friend, not to say the whole community should be supporting him and paying for the best lawyer.

It's the same the other way, btw. Recently there was a case in Jerusalem of a mother sending two guys to beat up an elderly woman she suspected of molestation. It's obviously very wrong, but I can understand why the family and friends believes one person over the other without waiting for trial and I don't think it's reasonable to expect anything different.

HindaRochel

Fri, May 18 2012, 3:53 am

Until all the facts come out, and then if and only if all the facts come out, which is often not the case in trials, we are simply battering charges back and forth against two people who, in the eyes of the law are both innocent until proven guilty.

Let the system do its job. The system does mess up, but trial by media and imamother never really is effective.

If you believe the man innocent, then help finance his case, and offer him and his family emotional support.

If you feel the girl innocent then help her.

But arguing about whether or not girls make up false charges (they do) or whether girls can be convinced that something happened that didn't is possible (it is sometimes) or whether apparently upstanding men can do evil (they can) or whether anything else is not going to really affect anything.

↑ First Lady ↓

Fri, May 18 2012, 4:00 am

imamiri wrote:

Mama Bear wrote:

she's sixteen now. the alleged abuse happened between ages twelve and fifteen.

Trust me, she is very worldly. She is not a naive sheltered girl by any long shot. I'm not saying she made up this story; just refuting your assumption that she doesn't know these things bc she's young.

In any case, this story has given me so much heartache that I'm bowing out of the discussion; I prefer to think about less nauseating things...

Worldly? Does that mean she was asking for it? Or that she cannot be trusted? Sick and twisted. Step outside the box and no one believes if someone hurts you?

The fundraiser made national print and television news. Now the nation and world think Jews are sickos who want to help perverts. Now those of us not affiliated with these perverts have to spend who knows how long explaining we aren't like "them". We don't support child molesters. We don't shun victims. Thanks a bunch.

We need to stop fearing the "non jews" because we are doing an excellent job of making ourselves out to be monsters.

Mama Bear did not mean it that way. read it again. Nobody deserves to be a victim of zxual violence no matter what.
I'm having the same trouble but probably harder because I am chassidish explaining that many of us are against the way this community handles these cases and not like that. I know how it feels and I feel bad for all of us thrown unfairly in this position by their tactless acts shown on national tv. Many in the community were extremely upset about this chillul hashem.

↑ chani8 ↓

Fri, May 18 2012, 4:03 am

sky wrote:

I actually did write that I hope people are collecting money for her if needed.

sky wrote:

I hope that people are doing this for her as well and will not rely on public legal aid.

You have no idea what you are talking about. She does not need legal aid because she is not on trial.

I'm shocked by the total ignorance on this thread.

Mamabear and others, you are making fools of yourselves. Go read the police report (links were already posted on this thread) and read for yourself the charges against him.

And then go back to your caves.

↑ chani8 ↓

Fri, May 18 2012, 4:29 am

I would laugh but it really makes me want to puke. Puke

What some of you would call a 'worldly girl' is someone who might sneak nail polish from her mother.

This is loshen hara, no toeles, and you have no right to say anything negative about this girl. Did you miss that day of shmirat haloshen or does your community not hold by those halachot?

I declare with full conviction that the fundraiser was EVIL. Make no justification for it. And this will backfire in their face. It already has. In their wickedness they have made a chilul H to the whole world.

Those of who belong to that community, you should distance yourself from evil and if possible move far away.

Last edited by chani8 on Fri, May 18 2012, 5:30 am; edited 2 times in total

↑ ora_43 ↓

Fri, May 18 2012, 4:31 am

re: the male therapist thing - am I the only one who remembers the story told by a poster here, who was molested by her female teacher when she was a vulnerable "troubled" teen Crying

?

I agree with previous posters that men are more likely to be offenders, but it's not so much more likely as people seem to think. The risk is several times higher, but not "will probably happen" vs. "won't happen" higher. Just saying "stay away from men" won't prevent abuse. (but then when it comes to a therapist, I can't think of many things that could prevent abuse. a lot of the usual advice doesn't work in a therapist-patient relationship)

I think the "unlicensed therapist" thing is a bigger issue. I do appreciate that there are a lot of people who wouldn't qualify for therapist training due to, say, poor math skills, or lack of money, who are still very warm and caring and excellent at helping people in distress. And I don't think that getting good grades in psychology, or even getting a good assessment from a supervisor as an intern, makes someone definitely a good therapist.

But that said, one big thing is that licensed therapists are taught about the type of conduct that is appropriate with patients, about the importance of acting professionally, and similar things. I'm not sure how far that goes in preventing intentional abuse, but it can't hurt - and it makes it a lot more clear when lines have been crossed (eg. a therapist who took a patient on a trip couldn't argue "gosh I didn't realize that wasn't appropriate").

Something for unlicensed therapists and those who use their services to keep in mind.

↑ ora_43 ↓

Fri, May 18 2012, 5:08 am

chani8 wrote:

Ora you are missing out on a very big important aspect for licensed therapists vs those unqualified untrained self-titled "counselors" backed and promoted by rabbonim, and that is, professional accountability and supervision.

You're right. I was thinking of self-employed therapists, who don't have much direct supervision. But now that you mention it, they can lose their license for inappropriate non-criminal behavior. So that's another safety measure and an important one.

And therapists practicing in a group setting usually have lots of oversight and really stringent rules on contact with patients. That's not so relevant to this case, just a ftr.

↑ sky ↓

Fri, May 18 2012, 9:26 am

chani8 wrote:

sky wrote:

I actually did write that I hope people are collecting money for her if needed.

sky wrote:

I hope that people are doing this for her as well and will not rely on public legal aid.

You have no idea what you are talking about. She does not need legal aid because she is not on trial.

I'm shocked by the total ignorance on this thread.

So please explain it me. If a child is abused the prosecution side is just from the gov't?
It doesn't sound right. Why should the defense get to hire the best lawyer money can buy, but the other side has to rely on who gets assigned to their case? I don't see how that is fair to society in general.

↑ Merrymom ↓

Fri, May 18 2012, 10:24 am

Of course Mamabear wants to leave the discussion, now that she's inflamed everyone and doesn't want to hear how sick and twisted her thoughts of this girl are. "Worldly" ? What exactly does that mean? Oh, she flirted with a boy or even more, so now she can describe in detail being molested or raped? She understands the male mentality of an abuser at 12,13,14,15, or 16?!!!!! What is the matter with you Mamabear? You are so sure she's made up the whole thing, based on what? Were you there, do you know anything other than that this girl is a disturbed child? Being messed up in the head and making bad decisions as a teenager does not mean that she's capable of making this stuff up. Do you think the therapist and the court system are a bunch of idiots? That they can't tell the difference between someone that has a personal vendetta and the truth? Do you think they didn't hear Weberman's side of the story? If they are going ahead with the prosecution then the d.a. believes very strongly that there is enough EVIDENCE to convict or they wouldn't bother. Is that so difficult for people to wrap their head around, that our automatic response is "No, no way would that super nice man be capable of such a horrible thing". Because evil people don't necessarily look like monsters, they look like nice people. How else would they be able to get close enough to their victims?

↑ chavamom ↓

Fri, May 18 2012, 10:40 am

chani8 wrote:

sky wrote:

I actually did write that I hope people are collecting money for her if needed.

sky wrote:

I hope that people are doing this for her as well and will not rely on public legal aid.

I believe the term is "grasping at straws".

↑ chavamom ↓

Fri, May 18 2012, 10:47 am

sky wrote:

chani8 wrote:

sky wrote:

I actually did write that I hope people are collecting money for her if needed.

sky wrote:

I hope that people are doing this for her as well and will not rely on public legal aid.

You have no idea what you are talking about. She does not need legal aid because she is not on trial.

I'm shocked by the total ignorance on this thread.

What defense are you talking about? This sounds like my kids: "why don't you SUE them?" You know, b/c I bought a blender that didn't work. Are people seriously so ignorant of the law?

↑ chani8 ↓

Fri, May 18 2012, 11:00 am

sky wrote:

Yes, Sky, thanks for asking for clarification. I can understand your comments better now.

I will answer with a simple, yes, the prosecution side is from the govt. They are the ones formally 'accusing' the suspect based on the evidence and testimonies that they gathered in their investigation. Prosecutors don't like to lose, they don't like to be wrong, and since their reputation is at stake, they often don't waste their time on cases that seem too weak to stand up against cross-examination.

I was going to explain the process in detail, but I think this is clear enough. If you still aren't clear, ask again. I am off to Shabbat, but other imamothers are anyway more qualified to explain the legal process.

↑ sky ↓

Fri, May 18 2012, 11:07 am

chavamom wrote:

sky wrote:

chani8 wrote:

sky wrote:

I actually did write that I hope people are collecting money for her if needed.

sky wrote:

I hope that people are doing this for her as well and will not rely on public legal aid.

You have no idea what you are talking about. She does not need legal aid because she is not on trial.

I'm shocked by the total ignorance on this thread.

What defense are you talking about? This sounds like my kids: "why don't you SUE them?" You know, b/c I bought a blender that didn't work. Are people seriously so ignorant of the law?

I guess I am ignorant of the law. Can you please explain without making fun.

Isn't the man accused of abuse allowed to have a defense lawyer during the court case? Isn't there a court case to find guilty of abuse?

this is how I understand things:
A person accuses someone of abuse.
There is a court case to find the accused guilty or innocent.
The defendant is allowed to have a lawyer to defend him and present evidence that he is innocent. That would be the defense.
Then there is a prosecutor to prevent proof that the abuse did take place. I'm assuming he is hired from the state. I'm asking why is that fair? I would consider a privately hired lawyer to be better then a state assigned prosecutor. Especially if that person understood the ins and outs of the community where it occurred. It seems (to me) the defendant has an advantage then.
Is that how it works?

↑ Mama Bear ↓

Fri, May 18 2012, 11:09 am

imamiri wrote:

Speaking of sick and twisted - THIS is a perfect example of how many of you on this thread are TWISTING OTHERS' WORDS. What on earth are you talking about???

I was responding to the posts right before me where other posters are claiming that she could have never made up such a story since she was only 12 and doesnt know about molestation etc.

My response was, she is 16, and she is very worldly, she isnt your innocent naive sheltered chasidishe girl.

The entire first paragraph of your post has absolutely nothing to do with what I said - I dont understand how you could take that out of context.

As for your second paragraph, yes, I agree with you on that, didn't you notice I kept saying in my long post that the PR fundraiser was an awful idea?