is the bais yaakov system failing us???

↑ amother ↓

Thu, Mar 01 2012, 5:45 am

Merrymom wrote:

amother wrote:

Merrymom wrote:

amother wrote:

Merrymom wrote:

I speak hebrew fluently and I didn't until I was 19 years old. All those years of the dreaded milim and memorization really came in handy when I finally decided that I need to speak the language. Another thing, college was laughably easy for me after years of struggling in a frum school. Our brains are sharper, we're more focused, more hardworking, all because of this training that we get. In no way do I think it's a waste of time. The only girls whose self-esteem suffers from their lack of success in this area, is from those whose parents make her feel like a dummy. If you know that you were willing to put in the effort, that you would be successful then not being at the top of the class is really no big deal. Now if they were threatening to leave you back because of your chumash grades or refusing to acknowledge your presence in class because of your lazy attitude, that would be very different. Of course I do find alot of the subject matter to be unnecessary to girls but my biggest problem is not what they're learning in school, but what is expected of them outside of school. What kind of girls are we raising who are too busy with rambans to even learn how to cook or learn other necessary life skills. Erev y"t and erev shabbos I can have only the most minimal expectations of my daughtkners as they're too busy to help me.

I just wanted to add that not everyone who doesn't do well is lazy, it can be a learning disorder or just someone that isn't academically inclined. I really still think that what I said earlier still applies though. If the parents are proud of their daughter and discuss her grades in a positive way (seeing that she is trying her best) then that should not damage her self-esteem. Of course there always seems to be a nasty teacher, and you must sit down with your daughter and explain that not all people are completely sane even though they are the adult.

If it was so laughably easy for you, why did you drop out as you stated on another thread?

Did I drop out? That's surely news to me. I may not have gone as far as I would have liked but I certainly never dropped out.

Btw, is this discussion about me? Rolling Eyes

Do you have a college degree?

It is always about you. Are Shabbos robes proper? Merrymom's lost hers and the receipt.

Do Chassidish women sit in the back? Merrymom stalks them and knows who is married and which plain cars are not taxis.

Merrymom does not think older women should become Mothers.

I am trying to reconcile your statements. You said you did not finish college because the courses are irrelevant and the other students were not so bright. That was on a Deborah Feldman thread.

So do you have your degree?

Do you have any other questions for me? What my degree is, what college I attended, how many kids I have, my bank statements maybe?

Don't read two sentences that I wrote and misquote me, take what I say out of context, and think you know all about my life. Whoever you are. There are various stages to getting an education which I understand you don't know anything about or you wouldn't be questioning me on something that is that simple. Not that it's any of your business. Do you want to know about my college education, pm me under your real name.

I noticed you didn't answer the question.

I don't really understand the various stages. You either get your degree or stop going. It is that simple. After your first degree, you can get your second and so on. That was a very evasive answer you gave Merrymom.

It is none of my businesses until you put these things out there.

Anyway, one really cool thing I like about you and agree with is you don't tell on anyone if they disagree with you. It is a good trait.

If I pm you, will you tell me about you college degrees our lack thereof? Also, will you tel me what you have against older moms?

↑ jelly belly

Thu, Mar 01 2012, 6:34 am

amother wrote:

I'm not sure what the danger is in having the chol classes be more challenging than the kodesh.

The brighter girls will have their challenge, and the weaker ones won't be turned off by torah. If they are really driven (as I was) they can take extra optional courses.

As long as the subject matter in chol is completely kosher, and preferably taught by yirei shamayim.

I recall in seminary, (and I went to one that was considered "academic") my roommate and I would occasionally sit over a math book and enjoy working out the problems. I don't think my yiras shamayim was lacking because I missed the stimulation of triganometry.

My friends who struggled academically did not feel that chumash was more challenging than history. I don't think you are solving anything. I have no problem with secular studies. I have an advanced degree myself. I think it would be sad if we taught our daughters that secular studies are more important and more stimulating than Jewish studies. If you feel they can handle intellectual stimulation, let them appreciate that they can get it from tanach. Don't make Judaism about a set of rules and a long history, and let all the interesting and stimulating learning come from science and math.

Raisin

Thu, Mar 01 2012, 10:31 am

jelly belly wrote:

amother wrote:

I found chumash very much more challenging then history. (and I am not stupid at all) History is all in english, no foreign words to memorise. I think with chumash its very easy to fall behind early on eg parents are too busy to do chazara with you so you just find it harder and harder the older you get.

↑ Merrymom

Thu, Mar 01 2012, 11:06 am

amother wrote:

Merrymom wrote:

amother wrote:

Merrymom wrote:

amother wrote:

Merrymom wrote:

If it was so laughably easy for you, why did you drop out as you stated on another thread?

Did I drop out? That's surely news to me. I may not have gone as far as I would have liked but I certainly never dropped out.

Btw, is this discussion about me? Rolling Eyes

Did you notice that nobody else is interested in this obsession that you have with my college education? Do you know why? Because it has nothing whatsoever to do with this thread. Now, had you from the begining simply pm'd me about your curiosity I likely would have answered you. It's a simple yes or no, that anybody in my life knows the answer to; it's no secret. However, your comments about how everything is all about me, hijacking this thread, obsessing over details of my life that have nothing to do with you, are quite frankly very unsettling, kind of stalkerish. Who remembers comments that some anonymous person made from weeks ago on this board? It's odd and I don't feel like catering to it anymore.

Your comments about me not reporting things I see as being manipulative, it's not going to stop me from reporting you if you continue to harass me.

It's idiotic of me to answer you really, but here I go, I'm a few credits short of my degree and not because I dropped out. Saying that college was basically a waste of time doesn't contradict any of that.
That's all I'm going to tell you, take it or leave it.

↑ Fox ↓

Thu, Mar 01 2012, 1:20 pm

sneakermom wrote:

I think the problem isn't just that the curriculum is too taxing for the weaker students. Which is true. But I think the teaching is lacking depth and soul. My daughter for example loves to learn, but she isn't getting satisfied intellectually from her Hebrew studies because it is full of rote, memorization and rules. And that is where we have somehow lost contact with Sara Schenerieers message. When she started her school it was filled with idealism, connection to Yiddishkeit, intellectualism and rote. Today we have rote but little of anything else. And I as a parent find myself trying to teach my daughter things that I learn on my own that do reach her. But she is sitting in a classroom all day....and she is bored and not inspired.

I really don't understand why people think it's a matter of arguing about curriculum. It's really not. Every school is slightly different and serves a different constituency with different values.

What bothers me is the lackadaisical manner in which material is taught at all levels. The rebbeim at my son's Cheder, some of whom barely speak English, create CDs with songs and music to help students memorize the rote stuff. They make PowerPoint presentations that kids can view again and again. They come dressed up as the Kohen Gadol to help the kids learn about the beged. They use voice recorders and dry-erase paddles to make sure every student is understanding the material being learned. They come up with contests and games to make learning the boring stuff easier -- so that they can spend more time on inspirational stories and programs with practical application.

My girls' schools have a standard pedagogical technique: the teachers read and lecture while the students take notes. Doesn't matter what class; doesn't matter what topic. With one exception: the math teacher at my DDs' high school. She is also a very talented musician, and she makes up songs to help everyone remember algebraic functions. As a result, my DDs, who are not especially talented math students, can't understand why anyone would find Trigonometry difficult. Why not take Calculus next year? How hard could it be?

But suggest that students might benefit from a slightly bigger bag of pedagogical tricks, and many principals will give you a condescending little lecture on how all these new-fangled educational ideas have ruined today's students, making them lazy. The problem with that is that it's absolutely false. There are plenty of educational techniques, such as using song to teach material that must be learned by rote, that have an extensive history in our mesorah.

What makes a good school? A big factor, IMHO, is the desire and commitment to become a better school. Too many BY schools seem to have trouble distinguishing between guarding our mesorah and defending mediocrity.

↑ sneakermom

Fri, Mar 02 2012, 7:06 am

Fox wrote:

sneakermom wrote:

Thanks for the validation. And I want to add that in my daughter's B.Y. school the English dept is way ahead always learning the latest way to teach and keeping up academically. But being that there is no dept of education in limudei kodesh that propels the school to grow things have stagnated and we all know that learning needs to be a vibrant and ever growing process other wise....things get stale pretty quickly.

emhabanim ↓

Fri, Mar 02 2012, 7:13 am

For those of you questioning the learning of Navi and Chumash - it is not just the story, it is also the sense of realizing Hashem's presence in the world and His hand guiding everything... it is understanding how an event done at one point in time can affect klal yisroel forever, and learning your connection to Matan Torah. For example, would there be a 9 B'av ledoros had we not done Ches Hameraglim???? Would we blow shofar 100 kolos and have the machlokes of how the kolos should be made were it not for Devorah fighting Sisra? By learning our responsibilities to yiddishkeit we learn how our actions will affect the future doros: maseh avos siman labanim. We see Hashagacha Pratis and how Hashem guides the world. We see how we can affect the course of Jewish history. Were we not to learn Yirmiyahu and see how klal yisroel ignored his warnings, would we understand the importance of listening to shleichi Hashem? Would we not learn Yechezkel and Ovadiah would we understand and believe in Mashiach? Were we not to learn of the mesirus nefesh of the women in Mitzrayim would we understand that their actions led us to survive today... much as our actions as mothers continue the survival of klal yisrael? Is Yona simply a cute story we teach or is it to teach us that you can't run from Hashem and all your actions are known to him? A solid teacher doesn't just teach the story, she gives over the love of yiddishkeit and the messages the story brings home. Many halachos are dervied and supported by pesukim in Chumash and Navi... in fact the Gemarrah is full of using them as rayas for someting.... ask your husbands. Would we understand and value Eretz Yisroel without learning TaNaCh???

Rashi and midrashim and meforshim are taught to show us how a single word is a basis for so much... watch your speech, be careful and see the hidden gems in Torah. For those girls capable of seeing how a word in a chumash, or a prefix on a word leads us to so much why not understand this and have these skills? Why should these girls be taught chemistry, physics, high level math and not appreciate the high level of lomdus in Torah? Why not enable the girls to appreciate how there can be chumras and kulas in halacha and to think things through?

As for the girls who are not capable of such learning, why not track them into classes that don't delve into as much skill and give them a different approach to the same curriculum? Why do those girls need to be in the same classes with the same requirements as the girls who are capable of learning on a higher level? Why is it that boys can be tracked in shiur but not the girls? A girl who can learn yiras shamayim via a deeper textual analysis should be enabled to do so ... and one who needs a different approach to yiddishkeit given her approach in school.

It isn't about chiyuv Talmud Torah at all.... it is about being proud and understanding where you come from and who you are. Those lessons are ones a solid teacher gives when teaching chumash and navi. They should be given to each girl on her own level.

↑ emhabanim ↓

Fri, Mar 02 2012, 7:35 am

to the OP
I never wrote that any school I attended or my kids attend didn't make learning fun and exciting and find creativity and innovation.

I also never wrote that they didn't have supports for weaker students.

I simply disagree with you that girls shouldn't be learning on a high level. You're sending them to work,out to the world, in today's day and age having them not use their academic abilities to the highest level in limudei kodesh would be to handicap them in avodas Hashem. I don't understand why our brilliant girls should be dummed down at all simply because they are girls... we wouldn't dumb down our sons, so why our daughters? To me it is not an issue of Talmud Torah, but an issue of chanoch lenar al pey darko and those brilliant girls should be given their skills and their yiras shamayim from their abilities.... teach them to have critical analaysis, analytical abilities, to question and to understand.

In the same vein, chanoch lenar al pey darko... the weaker boys and girls should be given vocational training, less analysis, different approaches to feel close to Hashem and proud of themselves. Go read Rav Hirsch on the chinuch given by Yitzchak and Rivka to Yakov and Eisav... where he states that giving them both the same chinuch was wrong based on their abilities and personalities.

Pressure comes from the home ... You can have a highe pressure teacher but the parents can tell the child to chill out and ignore it or switch her class. You don't need to pick a high pressure school for a weak student. I personally couldn't care about a grade as long as my child tried. I learned that from my mother oh who hung up a 21 I got on a test that I took the day I came back from school after being absent for 10 days. The teacher made me take the test, and my mother was proud because I tired, I wasn't chutzpadik.

FYI, one day when I no longer have small children I dream of going into High School classrooms and teaching TaNaCH and making it come alive to the girls and having them use their hearts and minds and souls to understand its beauty and to relate its lessons to their everyday lives.

↑ emhabanim ↓

Fri, Mar 02 2012, 7:56 am

True , but that was in a different time. Those women were given a tzena urena in the cradle and taught to make a home from the time they could crawl. Sara Schneirer saw as did gedolim that the world was changing.... our girls are going to college, out to the work force... and if we don't empower them with a strong sense of Gadlus HaTorah and show them the high level of learning available in Torah they will simply only find it and find intelectual stimulation in the secular world. We would loose yiras shamayim in today's girls which would profoundly affect generations of klal yisroel.

Telling us that women for generations had yiddishkeit without the level of learning today is not a valid argument for today's generation. Nishtanu Hadoros.

For some girls of today you are correct that high level analysis in not necessary and unfair. But for many today... even the average student it is a necessity or she will not realize that there is no science, no math, that was not known in Torah ( look at calendar calculations in gemarrah, how Rav Ashi - I believe -knew the constellations like the streets of Bavel) and that no course out there in the world that can compare to theTorah's lessons and intricacies, depth and overall relevance to everything in the world.

bigsis144

Fri, Mar 02 2012, 8:42 am

amother wrote:

Sorry eimhabanim, I posted before I saw your post. I was refering to the two posters before you.

I'm all for giving the callenge to the brighter girls. Instead of labelling students by streaming, (thereby creating a preassure not only to do well, but to get into the higher level), why not choose the option of making these classes optional.

School would end earlier, some would choose art, some music, and many would choose stimulating textual classes. Again, for generations women had no shaichis to chumash beiyun, and their yiras shomayim didn't suffer an iota

In my high school, there was an option between taking American History (no AP or college credits offered for the class itself, but the teacher offered a few Sundays of prep to take the American History CLEP) and sewing.

The sewing girls had 3 periods a week of sewing, and one period of history.

I love history and never really struggled academically, but I was still super annoyed that I never got the chance to learn to sew in school. Not that I would ever use sewing in my life (other than small hem fixes and sewing on buttons), but I definitely wanted to learn.

And if the choice came down to art/music (as suggested above) and a kodesh class, I'd be REALLY MAD at having to make that choice. How are they even comparable?! In high school, I loved class, but if everything became optional, I doubt I'd take advantage of it. Think of how invested 12th graders are in their studies, now multiply that by 4 years of high school. Lishma classes are nice, but I needed an attendance grade and tests.

↑ Fox

Fri, Mar 02 2012, 9:10 am

emhabanim wrote:

Just had an interesting conversation with my daughter who is home today. She is learning in Navi about Shaul HaMelech fighting amalek. I discussed with her that the story is really a lesson of listening to Hashem...and believing all He does is L'tova even when things appear harsh, difficult and unfair. We don't see everything, only He does. Shaul did not listen because he couldn't understand why every last thread of amalek had to be destroyed... and allowed Agag a night to live and be with his wife... resulting in a child of Amalek the nation of Haman. What would have been had Shaul listened? Would there have been a Purim and so many of the tzaros of klal yisroel? What would have been of his melucha and that of Bais Dovid?

This story is exactly why our girls need to learn and learn well.... think, understand, develop yiras Shamayim.

It sounds like your DD has a wonderful Navi teacher.

However, I don't think this story illustrates anything about the "level" at which girls need to learn. It illustrates, rather, that our teachers must help girls "connect the dots," bring out the inner meanings of these texts, and discuss how the lessons apply to our lives.

It's great when that happens, as it seems to be in your DD's class.

However, for many girls, Navi class consists of reading and translating, with minimal discussion of the bigger picture. Therefore, a girl who can translate well and regurgitate whatever the teacher said is going to get wonderful grades and be considered a great student. A girl whose language skills are poor but who thinks about and internalizes the message of the Navi is going to flunk test after test.

My DH happens to teach a weekly women's shiur on Navi, and the women attending the shiur range from BY grads to barely observant. The content of the shiur focuses not on reading, but on the underlying message that is being sent by the Navi. Although many of the women are familiar with the stories themselves, the vast majority are hearing the meaning of the story for the first time.

You don't have to be smart to get the message contained in the story of Shaul HaMelech. You don't even have to read loshen hakodesh. Yes, of course you should be taught to read loshen hakodesh, and it's nice if you're smart enough to grasp the meaning without a lot of help. But the meaning of the story is pretty accessible for everyone. This was the beauty of Tzena Urena: it distilled important lessons into easily accessible language.

If your DD happens to have a teacher who is able to balance the technical skills with the "big picture," then all is well. Unfortunately, many girls slog through classes that focus exclusively on the trees at the expense of the more-important forest.